shared by Jordan on fb:
may 2014 – Interview (with Larry Michel)
on moving problems (symptoms) around – we have to address the interconnectedness
when we create a system where individual advantage is pitted against advantage of the whole…. damage caused mostly by moral people… just that this structure requires it
20 min – economics is a made up system… ecology is not – problem is that economics interfaces with ecology.. this made up system is to the point of self-terminating.. so we need a new system..
24 min – this system of governance is beholden to the economic system.. law by itself is not adequate to the change we need
30 min – on economic structure – we have to look at how we address all of it systemically.. the question isn’t what’s most important… it’s how do we do it all optimally
what the critical path institute has been doing
? – don’t see him on there.. right one?
Jordan listed as one of the partners here
32 min – we are a global people affecting each other… focusing on one part of it is part of the problem..
manhattan project – $100000 people.. mounds of money.. to figure out how to kill the most amount of people we can kill… imagine using that for very wide value systems…. the complexity of the problems we face – how to feed/educate everybody – are fairly simple… but they are based in separate competitive interest…
39 min – not only do we each have a drill.. none of us have a drill that is the best drill… ie: since not sharing best drill parts, intellectual property..
the competitive system based on scarcity is actually a self-fulfilling prophecy for scarcity
41 min – competitive motivation is one motive.. we can compete – against time.. problems…
even the term natural resource is an inherently violent concept.. living is economical invaluable to anybody… we kill to commodify.. these things are worth something to us dead but not alive
45 min – as long as other living things.. have no rights.. and economic system sees whole commons as something to extract/steal from…
47 min – coal cheaper than solar.. unless we account for taking external cost from commons… coal is 4 times magnitude..
51 min – easy to look at greed as a few fat cats at the top.. but greed is a part of a competitive system. all of us in it. but this is not in human nature.
in a culture where you don’t have mine/our.. you don’t have greed/selfish/jealousy.
greed is not fundamental to our nature.. it’s built into this manmade system of scarcity – that teaches us that empathy isn’t viable..
if there’s not enough for everybody.. compassion is not viable..
behavior modification via internal change in value system
57 min – one of the really critical thing that has to change: responsibility.. we have a system that defers responsibility everywhere.. so nowhere
most violent cultures have language that describes deferring responsibility… ours is not to question why.. ours is but to do or die
1:00 – when we look at the scope of all the challenges.. between the mnemonic (mindset) and the artifact (tech) are the economics
ie: why is gold worth something?.. perceived scarcity; oxygen… has no value.. because it’s abundant; so we dig up forest to get to gold.. to put gold in a safe.. in the separatist system.. this competition/scarcity comes into play. an interconnected system – value comes in use.
when the value of a commodity comes from scarcity.. we artificially scarcity.. ie: increased price.. we drive poverty by our systems incentives..
1:05 – economics is the codification of values, how are values become infrastructure.. what we ascribe value to, ie: the dead whale over the alive one.. this fundamental structure has to shift.. from separate/competitive to interconnected/simbeotic
1:06 – restructuring… one of first things that has to occur – there’s so much well-intended work being done.. but without deep enough analysis for fundamentally adequate solutions… ie: moving problems around.. a problem well enough understood is half solved..
so we have to do a deep analysis of economics and power structures.. any solution that doesn’t address these things won’t be adequate.. redesigns of new systems of resource allocation and incentive and collective decision making that are free of those flaws.. prototyping..
1:08 – our work with critical institute is exactly this… the underlying things that drive these problems are what has to be focused on… what would adequate systems look like in a public education phase…. awakening in education to know what to work on… the problems aren’t a few bad people, or isolated problems…
1:10 – responsibility is very different than fault.. what can i do to change it now
1:12 – seeing others as separate but interconnected
i know you ness
until we get that sentience is sovereignty we are still slave owners
2 needs ness
imagine words in the realm Daniel so fluently describes money’s scarcity edge. common words are nice and i trust they will come when needed.. but perhaps we’re limiting systemic change by assuming certain words. what if we don’t need to educate first.. what if we just need to set people free, help facilitate their curiosities.. and trust that words/solutions/betterness will come. the game seems more equitable from the get go if we don’t need to prep or train first.
a global systemic change
via rt by @matthewjosef – matthew schutte
aug 2016 – emergence
emergence .. essential to understanding world we live and essential to understanding what it means to be human.. and the basis for meaning.. what that portends for future of civilization..
this is an ode.. love talk to emergence itself..
emergence: something new arises that wasn’t here before.. so.. where did the new properties come from.. closest thing to magic that’s kind of an admissible term in science..
how do you have a cell that respirates made up of molecules.. that none of them respirate
2 min – synergy (whole that’s greater than sum of its parts) and emergence (what is that greater) two sides of same phenom
synergy: fundamentally unpredicted/unpredictable.. result of relationship (result of attractive forces).. emergence result of synergy
3 min – bucky fuller called love metaphysical gravity (on attraction ness)
4 min – principle of allurement.. by which things have reason to come together.. that offers advantage .. that being separate doesn’t have
imagine if that wasn’t the case.. imagine if we had a universe where allure wasn’t a fundamental principle of it.. and the whole thing would have stopped at quantum foam.. because nothing attracts to have synergetic and emergent properties..
5 min – evolution: more elegantly ordered complexity.. sante fe institute..ie: ..bringing things together doesn’t give you emergent properties.. bringing them together in particularly elegant ordered way does..
even though complexity.. not enough order in complexity for emergent relationship.. not just heaps.. coming together..
why key that we see key data as self talk.. let each individual decide.. everyday.. what their attraction/allure/curiosity is.. then facil that..
perhaps.. just temp facil.. so we can get back to natural emergence.. or maybe with so many people.. will keep needing mech to facil the elegance..
6 min – the diff between a whole and a heap is order.. this means that not every relationship is synergistic.. some relationships are entropic.. they actually create the opposite direction of new emergent properties.. they *destroy some properties that were already there..
so not just relationship but diff kinds of relationship that max synergy
so.. perhaps entropy maxes synergy as well.. no?
7 min – also important .. get synergy when bring diff (not same) properties together.. so we’re very interested in having deep synergistic relationships with differences.. that lead to fundamentally new emerging properties
prejudice decreases as discrimination increases.. ness
so .. not just net complexity.. ordered complexity.. elegantly ordered complexity.. then when you get a new property.. universe selects for that.. some property that offers some evolutionary advantage to that system..
isn’t the evolutionary advantage that we’re alive/awake.. and open to change.. dancing with change..? thinking that we trip ourselves up thinking one thing or another is an advantage..
8 min – universe is actually selecting for more differences/diversity.. and more synergistic combos across those differences.. more diversity and more unification across the diversity.. more agency and symbioses at the same time is what defines the era of evolution
9 min – so fundamental thing is emergence.. how much new arises.. and that’s what evolution selects for..
10 min – new best story: we have an evolutionary universe that doesn’t require a creator but is also not just random.. highly improbable set of movements that get us here.. but there’s a set of properties that give us a self-organizing.. rather than agent creative principle universe … with that story on the physical.. also have the evolution of consciousness structures themselves.. move from reptilian nervous to increased complexity of a mammalian.. and then a neocortical and then a prefrontal system.. you move from the kinds of sentience that map to that.. pain/pleasure at reptilian to emotional to cognition to abstraction.. so we have a universe that’s moving in the direction of not only more elegance.. but greater depths of consciousness itself..
11 min – this reifies meaning in a very interesting way… with our capacity for abstraction.. we can not just think about our experiential self at the moment but we can think about ourselves in abstract terms.. we can think about time abstractly.. *allows us to understand evolution itself.. how we got here.. and then how to envision a future.. **more beautiful/interesting..and then ***be part of that creative process..
*what if that doesn’t matter so much..? what if that binds us too much..? gets us to miss.. truly **emergent ***emergence..?
worth noting.. our prefontal cortex and process of abstraction is a pretty new phenom..
?. is it new..? or is the tech making us able to see it clearer (if we were really living) what’s new..
and also very powerful.. and when you have a new phenom that’s very powerful.. you’re not going to know how to use it that well.. and its applications will be destructive until you figure it out
hmm.. i don’t know.. thinking holmgren indigenous law.. thinking we already know.. just needs to listen deeper
so we can think about the future as worry.. the past as regret.. the self abstractly… in terms of negative self comparison.. then we have spiritual ideals emerge that basically say that this is all bad.. mind and ability for abstraction is bad.. we should not think about the future at all..
i kind of agree.. but not for that reason.. more worried that we’re missing us by overthinking the future.. predictions/stats.. et al.. thinking we even know us now..
12 min – or past.. and just be in moment.. and be like animals and children.. see how happy they are…. but it’s a regressive spirituality..
oh my.. missing rev of everyday life.. sounds like an oppressive spirituality.. no train man.. no train..
that is actually rejecting the fundamental novel human capability that emerged.. learn how to use it well.. for its evolutionary purposes.. in a fundamentally evolving universe..
if we learn how to use it well.. then we say.. how can we learn from the past.. *how the universe works..
ability to see *that falls apart if we’ve been sleeping cogs.. et al
to be able to *imagine a future in an omni considerate way.. that has fundamentally **less suffering and ***higher quality of life across all meaningful/quality of life metrics for all life
i think you mean *predict.. because i’m thinking most of the **suffering has come from this predictive/oppressive/consensus/way ness.. ie: us not letting go of defining ***higher quality ness for others/self.. turning it all into supposed to ness.. (not intentionally and not consciously)
how can we apply all that learning now to help create that world..
and in doing so we stop just being a part of the whole.. but in our ability to think about the whole and the direction of the whole we can actually become an agent for the whole..
now.. you’re negating what (you earlier said) synergy and emergence are.. ie: cell is living.. made up of non livings.. et al.. you’re saying (sounds like anyway) parts know on own.. rather than like before.. new thing..emergence.. happens when parts don’t know/have it
i think this is huge.. because us thinking we’re agents of whole.. in the way you are describing.. keeps us thinking we have to direct this.. keeps us from letting go of control.. i think this is why we have not yet gotten to equity.. huge
ie: from earlier: emergence: something new arises that wasn’t here before.. how do you have a cell that respirates made up of molecules.. that none of them respirate..2 min – synergy (whole that’s greater than sum of its parts) and emergence (what is that greater) .. how would we possibly give agency to this..? knowledge to this..? if we think we can.. we oppress our potential.. no..? we have to let go.. and just not know..
13 min – this is huge.. the bee is serving this huge role in evolution by pollinating the plants that make the atmosphere.. that make us.. but they don’t know they’re doing that.. they can’t consciously *figure out how to do it better..
oy.. that’s huge.. perhaps our .. trying to do it better ness.. is what’s getting in the way of our letting go.. ie: enough.. enough ness is what betterness is..
all these years of production.. et al.. we have gotten worse at being alive.. ie: suicide rate.. no…?
13 min – but *we actually have the capability at looking at what the whole story is and identifying .. the whole evolutionary universe brought me about and then woke up to itself in me..
i don’t know.. and i certainly don’t think .. (say we could.. ).. *the story we’re seeing now is really us.. and it seems.. the only way to cure that is for 7 bn plus of us .. to wake up.. not to train/learn to get better for evolution sake.. but to wake up and live life everyday..
let’s not work on a way to figure things out.. let’s work on a nother way that allows 7 bn plus to listen deep enough (to self and others) so they can ongoingly figure things/curiosities/allures out..grok what matters..
so in a meaningful way .. i am actually the evolutionary/impulsive universe awoke to itself in a form that has adequate order of complexity to contemplate that and then get to consciously choose how to participate with it to be in a … not just aboard spaceship earth but crew.. to help steer the direction of evolution and cosmos
i think you lost the magic man..
and so we move from evolution as a mostly unconscious algo process that selects for dominance now to a process that can be mediated by conscious agents.. that can actually *forecast a more beautiful future.. and **select to help create that..
**? select or listen..(fitting via Mary Ann today: ‘I once told time by the moon. Now I listen to it.’ holmgren indigenous law)
14 min – when we don’t id as evolutionaries.. then we id as nouns rather than *verbs
*verbs..? or rulers..?
absence of creation of beauty.. causes all kinds of addiction.. when we all id as evolutionaries.. we obsolete the need of pain for a driver..
15 min – ourselves as emergent property
agreed.. why we have to embrace that.. rather than figure out how to do evolution better
17 min – you have something to offer that no one else has to offer
exactly.. and if we focus on steering the ship.. we miss our own art.. we put our art on hold.. which causes.. addiction.. and a ship.. that’s not us.. maybe it’s efficient for something.. but it’s not us..
18 min – right now we don’t have humanity/civilization.. we have humans bumping..
i’d call that civilization.. and not humanity.. that’s why i don’t think we need to figure the ship out day to day.. we need to disengage from supposed to’s and trust
we are bumping.. but i don’t think it’s because we aren’t civilized.. ie: we’re civilized so much that we kill ourselves more than others..
if we cherry pick from the huge data sets about where humanity is going right now ..we can see that things are exponentially changing.. which means.. you can cherry pick things getting better and worse.. which means.. those things that curves predict aren’t happening.. can’t be getting better and worse
19 min – doesn’t mean things are getting better or worse it means the current system is de stabilizing.. and that means self terminating.. so we then either have a discrete phase shift to a *lower order.. entropic system.. **or the emergence of the higher order system.. that is foundationally diff than the current system we have
? i think we miss it if we 1\ have *higher/lower ness.. and if we 2\ assume*or rather than and entropy and emergence..
20 min – we now have tech capacity to allocate resources
matters little if we aren’t all awake first.. so i would suggest.. we use the tech capacity we now have to facil curiosities first.. ie: other wise have 7 bn people asking for heroin (meaning.. things they don’t really want/need/desire..because we haven’t first created/allowed rat park ness)
phase shift characterized by 3 things:
1\level of social (structure) systems primarily economics (governance).. key shift is moving from differential advantage econ.. defined by private ownership.. valuation based in scarcity.. and differential advantage.. to an econ system that is defined by making sure that the incentive of every agent and well being of every agent in the commons is perfectly aligned with no externality.. understand interconnected ness.. system defined by systemic *advantage for the whole.. not communism/socialism/capitalism.. it’s **something that was not possible before to even anticipate.. but it is ***how your body works.. where doing ****what’s best for whole..
**eudaimoniative surplus ness
perhaps what’s clogging this.. is this idea of *advantage..? i don’t know.. makes me think of how we only know doing not being..
****but.. w/o defining what that is..agent of self.. but not of whole.. rather.. listening to whole..
2\ level of infrastructure.. from a linear materials econ where we extract from the earth.. then turn to trash.. to a closed loop econ.. where the trash is the new stuff.. stop extracting from earth and stop producing waste.. have a closed growth.. negative entropy
3\ level of superstructure (memetic shift) – awareness of all of us as facets of one integrated self evolving reality.. where the well being of everyone/commons are *not meaningfully calculable separate from each other..
*nice.. but i’d love to say.. not meaningfully calculable period.. (ie: no measuring/validating transactions/people)
what’s so interesting.. there used to be such a thing as local problems.. now .. they’re all global issues.. and can’t solve them w/o ie: china..india..
24 min – if we want to not be psycho paths.. there is no defn of success for ourselves that is not defn of success for everything.. when we really take that seriously.. everything changes..
mar 2017 – discussing complex problems
7 min – expo tech gives individual agents and small groups agents capacities they’ve never had before..
9 min – how do we take our new emergent techs and do something with them that is radically diff than we’ve ever done before..
10 min – you can’t have a system that incentivizes speed on things that have to go slowly (just after saying our fiscal ness incentivizes who gets there first.. so don’t take time to think thru)
that brings up incentive in general in complex systems .. of how do you get a bunch of individual cells/algae/whatever to work together to a super org rather than compete with each other.. you have to change the behavioral dynamics from competitive coop .. you have to change all the things that affect behavioral dynamics..
11 min – as long as we have any systems of incentive
14 min – cannot legislate against incentives long term.. if you make a law that says.. illegal to do this but still profitable to do this.. the companies can always move hq to another country
15 min – any solving thru regulation where incentives are mis aligned.. has never and will never work.. temp blip.. that’s it
ie: if we want a world w/o war.. we can’t have any incentive for war.. and we have to have incentive for .. collab/coop/etc
which we already have in our hearts.. buried deep down.. so .. question becomes.. how to uncover.. and keep on uncovering.. that
16 min – can you have freedom from war as long as we have zero sum game dynamics (ie: property ownership incentivizes competition) .. no.. so not only have to get rid of for profit military industrial complex.. you have to get rid of zero sum game..
17 min – which means you put all the resources into the exact wrong things
any system of differential advantage.. finite games that are zero sum.. which means any private balance sheets.. scarce resources.. competing for scarce resources and you possess them rather than have access to them.. that leads to ongoing progression to clusterfuck
18 min – so basically.. since private balance sheets we’ve had.. basically.. wars over resources..
stop measuring transactions..
19 min – so we’ve been on a trajectory toward this (global destruction by any means) as long as we’ve been on private balance sheets.. which means.. we’d been individual agents that had not yet cohered into any super org.. at point where we have to cohere or die.. so..
how do you get all the agents to align their agency
how do you make sure that the incentive of every agent is as close to perfectly aligned with the well being of every other agent of the commons as possible..
20 min – economics sets right at the intersection of world view (what do we value) and infrastructure (how do we meet our physical needs in relation to the physical planet.. the extension of ourselves that lead to the adaptive capacity of the group)..
because it’s how we codify value systems in a value equation.. what are we actually going to ascribe value and infer power to
21 min – ie: air.. enough of it.. everyone can have access to it.. so worth nothing.. so no econ incentive to not ..pollute it.. if there’s a resource there’s not much of.. then i want to own it.. even if that only provides symbolic advantage
what does it mean.. the commons has no balance sheet that is respected..
22 min – so we have to move our world view.. social systems.. and infrastructure holistically the next self-stabilizing complex up.. so what we’re interested in is .. what are the necessary/sufficient activities/transforms that have to happen in each of those areas to lead to a new self stabilizing dynamic that is antifragile in the presence of all the dynamics we’ll be facing
23 min – so in order to move up.. we can define the high level criteria of what has to transform in each of those categories and how they inter-affect each other.. and we can define all of them in terms of closing causal feedback loops that have been opened
feedback loop ness
ie: infrastructure.. have linear materials econ .. converting living ecosystem into dead zones and trash
24 min – so have to close that loop – where trash becomes basis to make new stuff.. continuous closed loop cycles..
up cycle ness
..that is post growth.. meaning.. it doesn’t require growth.. stable w/o more net add ins.. so doesn’t require input of new atoms.. new energy and new patterns happen
25 min – complex adaptive systems are defined by closed causal feedback loops (every organism is defined by capacity to sense environment and self.. sense making.. actuator capacity) ..and massive parallel processing
26 min – a lot of evolutionary disadvantage to sense stuff.. that we couldn’t act on.. we’d be freaked out
or if we acted and couldn’t in turn sense the effect.. we’d have no way of knowing if action was adaptive
27 min – as humans.. creating tools that extended our capacities.. as our tools grew we started to break open that feedback loop.. so to now.. fist is extended to entire military complex.. capacity to go pick something.. extended to entire industrial complex.. yet.. can no longer sense (too much info et al) how it is effecting rest of system.. so .. our sensory input we can’t actually make sense of
28 min – and to the degree we can make sense of things (because we’ve also extended our capacity of computation to make sense of stuff).. if we get ie: climate change is real.. we don’t have enough to act upon it.. so basically..
we have broken open our info processing systems.. and that is core to why we’re unadaptive..
so we have to close the incentive loop.. so that we sense how we effect each other..
when our capacity to affect each other was not existential (relating to existence).. the idea of winning a win/lose game makes sense.. ie: let’s make sure our military is better than theirs and we can actually win this thing
29 min – win/lose games at our level of power are all lose/lose games.. so basically win/lose has become an obsolete game theoretic model.. now we either have win/win or we have lose/lose and we have no space inbetween..
it’s not that they weren’t true before.. it’s that they were true at a certain level of power that’s not true anymore.. and so..
we have to figure out the win/win games..
let’s try this: a nother way
where any one’s incentive/advantage is tied to collective advantage
30 min – close loop:
1\ infra – materials econ
2\ human incentive – incentive of all well-being of other in commons perfectly aligned
3\ world view – defn of self and of everything else on the biosphere are not definable outside of relationship with each other..
31 min – win/lose games require sense of separate selves.. as soon as we have the idea of self as an emergent property of everything.. then i can’t get ahead at the expense of that which my life is fundamentally interconnected to
but we could just say.. if you succeed at any of those you succeeded.. because you can only succeed at any of those by all of them succeeding..
if we align the incentive of every agent with the well-being of every other agent in the commons.. and we succeed at that..
can’t do that w/o right infra
infra that can actually measure the balance sheet of the commons
no.. no measuring of transactions.. no
garden of eden – the transition – complex dynamics – july 2017
jordan – from dave snowden 10 yrs ago (1\ simple 2\ complicated 3\ complex 4\ chaos)
..simple enough for kid to get
becoming experts and managing complicated systems.. that no single person could.. frames what we do.. what we are good at doingcomplicated vs complex.. complicated: although phase space very large it doesn’t change.. in complex system.. things do change.. all the stuff we really care about are complex..and a big part of the game we’ve been playing last 15000 yrs.. has been trying to use complicated stuff to manage complex stuff.. impossible..in a complex system.. things that are causation.. are almost impossible to figure out.. can’t make prediction with precisionone of big problems.. when you have a complicated system.. trying to manage the complex system.. as the complex system changes.. the complicated system has to become more complicated..
till it becomes so complicated you can’t manage it.. till it does something dave snowden calls: takes a journey thru chaos..
and chaos is the 4th kind of system.. and we don’t like chaos.. but how it works.. have to break down and go thru chaos to come back into authentic complexity
perhaps our job right now is twofold:1\ figure out how to position ourselves so that we can in fact endure the chaos.. possibly even be antifragile to the chaos and use the chaos to build something very positive..
2\ do what we can now to envision what a future looks like that embraces complexity authentically..
daniel: more complicated blueprints are not going to get us there.. our motivational tool kit has to change.. as long as homeless ness is ok.. and killing is ok.. is it fair to call that civilization yet.. maybe not aspired to it yet.. maybe birth of civilization is what is on the other side if we navigate towards that..