at the café
(1922) errico malatesta – At The Café – Conversations on Anarchism – via kindle version from anarchist library [https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/errico-malatesta-at-the-cafe]
Errico Malatesta (4 December 1853 – 22 July 1932) was an Italian anarchist propagandist and revolutionary socialist. He edited several radical newspapers and spent much of his life exiled and imprisoned, having been jailed and expelled from Italy, England, France, and Switzerland. Originally a supporter of insurrectionary propaganda by deed, Malatesta later advocated for syndicalism. His exiles included five years in Europe and 12 years in Argentina. Malatesta participated in actions including an 1895 Spanish revolt and a Belgian general strike. He toured the United States, giving lectures and founding the influential anarchist journal La Questione Sociale. After World War I, he returned to Italy where his Umanità Nova had some popularity before its closure under the rise of Mussolini.
notes/quotes from 71 pgs:
Malatesta began writing the series of dialogues that make up At the Cafe: Conversations on Anarchism in March 1897, while he was in hiding in Ancona and busy with the production of the periodical L’Agitazione. Luigi Fabbri, in his account of this period, written to introduce the 1922 edition of the full set of dialogues (Bologna, Edizioni di Volontà), edited by Malatesta (Reprint, Torino, Sargraf, 1961), gives us a beguiling picture of Malatesta, clean-shaven as a disguise, coming and going about the city, pipe in mouth, smiling impudently at his friends, who, for the sake of his safety, wished him elsewhere.
The idea of the dialogues was suggested to him by the fact that he often frequented a café that was not usually the haunt of subversives such as himself. Indeed, one of the regulars, who was a member of the police, used to engage Malatesta in conversation without, of course, as Fabbri notes, any idea that a real prize lay within his grasp. Anarchism would almost certainly have been one of the topics of conversation since the anarchists of the city constantly bombarded their fellow townspeople with a barrage of propaganda that occasioned frequent trials.
The form that the dialogues were to take was drawn then from an actual venue and from Malatesta’s own experience. It resulted in a literary device excellently well suited to his particular genius, which is his ability to render complex ideas into straightforward language and to make them directly accessible. The dialogue form also allowed Malatesta to debate the ideas of his opponents, while subjecting his own anarchist views to a critical scrutiny aimed at communicating to his readers their political import and their practical applicability. Indeed one of the strengths of the dialogues is the absence of straw men. The inquisition of anarchism is searching and genuine, often highlighting what its opponents would regard as points of weakness and vulnerability. It makes Malatesta’s spirited defence all the more impressive.
Towards the end of 1897 Malatesta was identified and discovered by the Ancona police. He was arrested and then released. Immediately he began a round of lectures, abandoning both his journal and the unfinished dialogues. In 1898 he was placed under house arrest and in March 1899 he fled abroad, once more becoming a refugee. The dialogues remained interrupted at number ten, and in this form they were published, both in journals and as a pamphlet.
1 (of 17 dialogues)
MICHELE: I must say that I cannot understand why the peasants that hoe, sow and harvest have neither sufficient bread, nor wine or meat; why bricklayers that build houses don’t have a roof for shelter, why shoemakers have worn shoes. In other words, why is it that those who work, that produce everything, lack basic necessities; while those who don’t do anything revel in abundance. I cannot understand why there are people that lack bread, when there is much uncultivated land and a lot of people who would be extremely happy to be able to cultivate it; why are there so many bricklayers out of work while there are lots of people who need houses; why many shoemakers, dressmakers etc… are without work, while the majority of the population lacks shoes, clothes and all the necessities of civil life. Could you please tell me which is the natural law that explains and justifies these absurdities?.. t
PROSPERO: Yes, yes, I know what you are saying to me, and I even know the more or less lame arguments with which others would oppose you; the right of the owners derives from the improvement they bring to the land, from savings by means of which labour is transformed into capital, etc . But let me be even more frank. Things are as they are as the result of historical facts, the product of hundreds of years of human history. The whole of human existence has been, is, and will always be, a continuous struggle. There are those who have fared well and those who have fared badly. What can I do about it? So much the worse for some, so much the better for others. Woe to the conquered! This is the grand law of nature against which no revolt is possible.. t
dawn of everything (book) et al.. graeber make it diff law et al
What would you like? Should I deprive myself of all I have so I can rot in poverty, while someone else stuffs themselves on my money?
PROSPERO: Prevent all meetings, dismantle all associations, send to jail all those who think…t
rather.. those 3 working well.. cancerous distractions.. it’s not thinking (because all in whalespeak) that would make legit change.. but global detox/re\set ..
GIORGIO: You would be right if our revolution produced simply a change of government. But we want the complete transformation of the property regime, of the system of production and exchange; and as far as the government is concerned, a useless, harmful and parasitic organ, we don’t want one at all. We believe that while there is a government, in other words a body superimposed on society, and provided with the means to impose forcibly its own will, there will not be real emancipation, there will be no peace among people..t
any form of m\a\p
You know that I am an anarchist and anarchy means society without government.
GIORGIO: But in fact I want to demonstrate to you that poverty depends on the present mode of social organisation, and that in a more egalitarian and rationally organised society it must disappear.
When we do not know the causes of an evil and we don’t have solutions, well, there is not much we can do about it; but as soon as the solution is found, it becomes everybody’s concern and duty to put it into practice.. t
esp when problem deep enough that 8bn people already crave it
GIORGIO: The real reason why land is left uncultivated, and why cultivated land produces only a small proportion of its full potential, given the adoption of less primitive methods of cultivation, is because the proprietors do not have any interest in increasing its production.
The stones, bricks, lime, steel, timber, all the materials needed for construction exist in abundance; as do the unemployed bricklayers, carpenters, and architects who ask for nothing more than to work; why, then, is there so much idle capacity when it could be utilised to everybody’s advantage.
The reason is simple, and it is that, if there were a lot of houses, the rents would go down. The proprietors of the houses already built, who are the same people who have the means to build others, don’t really have any desire to see their rents decrease just to win the approval of the poor.
GIORGIO: Yes of course; or more generally it’s due to the fact that a few individuals have hoarded the land and all the instruments of production and can impose their will on the workers, in such a fashion that instead of producing to satisfy people’s needs and with these needs in view, production is geared towards making a profit for the employers.
All the justifications you think up to preserve bourgeois privileges are completely erroneous, or so many lies. A little while ago you were saying that the cause of poverty is the scarcity of products. On another occasion, confronting the problems of the unemployed, you would have said that the warehouses are full, that the goods cannot be sold, and that the proprietors cannot create employment in order to throw goods away.
In fact this typifies the absurdity of the system: we die of hunger because the warehouses are full and there is no need to cultivate land, or rather, the landowners don’t need their land cultivated; shoemakers don’t work and thus walk about in worn out shoes because there are too many shoes… and so it goes…
AMBROGIO: So it is the capitalists who should die of hunger?
GIORGIO: Oh! Certainly not. They should simply work like everybody else. It might seem harsh to you, but you don’t understand: when one eats well work is no longer threatening.’ I can show you in fact you that it is a need and a fulfilment of human nature. But be fair, tomorrow I have to go to work and it is already very late.
graeber stop at enough law et al
Until next time.
GIORGIO: Imagine, and this is something that has been witnessed many times, that an earthquake destroys a city ruining an entire district. In a little time the city is reconstructed in a form more beautiful than before and not a trace of the disaster remains. Because in such a case it is in the interests of proprietors and capitalists to employ people, the means are quickly found, and in the blink of an eye an entire city is reconstructed, where before they had continually asserted that they lacked the means to build a few “workers’ houses.”.. t
No — there will certainly be difficulties before things work out for the best; but, I can only see two serious obstacles, which must be overcome before we can begin: people’s lack of consciousness and… the carabinieri (italian military police).
AMBROGIO : Well then, let’s forget about religion if you wish since so much of it would be pointless to you. But you would acknowledge rights, morals, a superior justice!
GIORGIO: Listen: if it is true that rights, justice and morals may require and sanction oppression and unhappiness even of only one human being, I would immediately say to you, that rights, justice and morals are only lies, infamous weapons forged to defend the privileged;..t and such they are when they mean what you mean by them.
any form of m\a\p.. because has to be all of us
Rights, justice, morals should aim at the maximum possible good for all, or else they are synonyms for arrogant behaviour and injustice. And, it is certainly true that this conception of them answers to the necessities of existence and the development of human social cooperation, that has formed and persisted in the human conscience and continually gains in strength, in spite of all the opposition from those who up to now have dominated the world. You yourself could not defend, other than with pitiful sophism, the present social institutions with your interpretation of abstract principles of morality and justice.
AMBROGIO: You really are very presumptuous. It is not enough to deny, as it seems to me you do, the right to property, but you maintain that we are incapable of defending it with our own principles…
Giorgio: Yes, precisely. If you wish I will demonstrate it to you next time.
AMBROGIO: Indeed. I am really curious to hear how you would defend, in the name of justice and morals, your proposals for despoliation and robbery.
A society in which no-one is secure in their possessions would no longer be a society, but a horde of wild beasts ready to devour each other.
GIORGIO: Doesn’t it seem to you that this is precisely the case with today’s society?.. t
You are accusing us of despoliation and robbery; but on the contrary, isn’t it the proprietors who continually despoil the workers and rob them of the fruits of their labour?
GIORGIO: We’ll leave them buried if that’s what you want. As far as I am concerned it is not important. Individual property should be abolished, not so much because it has been acquired by more or less questionable means, as much as because it grants the right and means to exploit the work of others, and its development will always end up making the great mass of people dependent on a few.. t
wilde property law et al
But, by the way, how can you justify individual landed property with your theory of savings? You can’t tell me that this was produced from the work of the proprietors or of their ancestors?
AMBROGIO: You see. Uncultivated, sterile land has no value. People occupy it, reclaim it, make it yield, and naturally have a right to its crops, which wouldn’t have been produced without their work on the land.
GIORGIO: All right: this is the right of the worker to the fruits of his own labour; but this right ceases when he ceases to cultivate the land. Don’t you think so?
Now, how is it that the present proprietors possess territories, often immense, that they do not work, have never worked and most frequently do not allow others to work?
How is it that lands that have never been cultivated are privately owned? What is the work, what is the improvement which may have given a date of origin, in this case, to property rights?
The truth is that for the land, even more for the rest, the origin of private property, is violence. And you cannot successfully justify it, if you don’t accept the principle that right equals force, and in that case..t heaven help you if one day you become the most enfeebled.
GIORGIO: Let’s continue, then. Last time, if I remember rightly, in defending the right to property you took as the present basis positive law, in other words the civil code, then a sense of justice, then social utility. Permit me to sum up, in a few words, my ideas with respect to all this.
From my point of view individual property is unjust and immoral because it is founded either on open violence, on fraud, or on the legal exploitation of the labour of others; and it is harmful because it hinders production and prevents the needs of all being satisfied by what can be obtained from land and labour, because it creates poverty for the masses and generates hatred, crimes and most of the evils that afflict modern society..t
property.. manners, defer, private property.. bauwens property law.. bauwens property law.. wilde property law.. hardt/negri property law.. et al
For these reasons I would like to abolish it and substitute a property regime based on common ownership, in which all people, contributing their just amount of labour, will receive the maximum possible level of wellbeing.
AMBROGIO: Really, I can’t see with what logic you have arrived at common property. You have fought against property because, according to you, it derives from violence and from the exploitation of the labour of others; you have said that capitalists regulate production with an eye to their profits and not the better to satisfy to the public need with the least possible effort of the workers; you have denied the right to obtain revenue from land which one has not cultivated oneself, to derive a profit from one’s own money or to obtain interest by investing in the construction of houses and in other industries; but you have, however, recognised the right of workers to the products of their own labour, actually you have championed it. As a consequence, according to strict logic, on these criteria you can challenge the verification of the titles to property, and demand the abolition of interest on money and private income; you may even ask for the liquidation of the present society and the division of land and the instruments of labour among those who wish to use them… but you cannot talk of communism. Individual ownership of the products of one’s labour must always exist; and, if you want your emancipated worker to have that security in the future without which no work will be done which does not produce an immediate profit, you must recognise individual ownership of the land and the instruments of production to the extent they are used.
yeah.. any form of rights ness as red flag
AMBROGIO: So, really seriously, you are a communist? You want laws that would declare the share of each individual to be non-transferable and would surround the weak with serious legal guarantees.
GIORGIO: Oh! You always think that one can remedy anything with laws. You are not a magistrate for nothing. Laws are made and unmade to please the strongest.
Those who are a little stronger than the average violate them; those who are very much stronger repeal them, and make others to suit their interests.. t
AMBROGIO: And, so?
GIORGIO: Well then, I’ve already told you, it is necessary to substitute agreement and solidarity for struggle among people, and to achieve this it is necessary first of all to abolish individual property.
AMBROGIO: But there would be no problems with all the goodies available. Everything belongs to everybody, whoever wants to can work and who doesn’t can make love; eat, drink, be merry! Oh, what a Land of Plenty! What a good life! What a beautiful madhouse! Ha! Ha! Ha!
GIORGIO: Considering the figure you are cutting by wanting to make a rational defence of a society that maintains itself by brute force, I don’t really think that you have much to laugh about!
Yes my good sir, I am a communist. But you seem to have some strange notions of communism. Next time I will try and make you understand. For now, good evening.
not fan of fightness.. but this seems good resource for fight club?
AMBROGIO: Well, then, would you like to explain to me what this communism of yours is all about.
GIORGIO : With pleasure.
Communism is a method of social organisation in which people, instead of fighting among themselves to monopolise natural advantages and alternatively exploiting and oppressing each other, as happens in today’s society, would associate and agree to cooperate in the best interest of all. Starting from the principle that the land, the mines and all natural forces belong to everybody, and that all the accumulated wealth and acquisitions of previous generations also belongs to everybody, people, in communism, would want to work cooperatively, to produce all that is necessary.
AMBROGIO: I understand. You want, as was stated in a news-sheet that came to hand during an anarchist trial, for each person to produce according to their ability and consume according to their needs; or, for each to give what they can and take what they need. Isn’t that so?
GIORGIO: In fact these are principles that we frequently repeat; but for them to represent correctly our conception of what a communist society would be like it is necessary to understand what is meant. *It is not, obviously, about on absolute right to satisfy all of one’s needs, because needs are infinite, growing more rapidly than the means to satisfy them, and so their satisfaction is always limited by productive capacity; nor would it be useful or just that the community in order to satisfy excessive needs, otherwise called caprices, of a few individuals, should undertake work, out of proportion to the utility being produced. **Nor are we talking about employing all of one’s strength in producing things, because taken literally, this would mean working until one is exhausted, which would mean that by maximising the satisfaction of human needs we destroy humanity.
*symptom of sea world.. if we org around legit needs.. thinking we’d be about graeber stop at enough law et al..
**takes a lot of work ness and norton productivity law et al
What we would like is for everybody to live in the best possible way: so that everybody with a minimum amount of effort will obtain maximum satisfaction. I don’t know how to give you a theoretical formula which correctly depicts such a slate of affairs; but when we get rid of the *social environment of the boss and the police, and people consider each other as family, and think of helping instead of exploiting one another, the practical formula for social life will soon be found. In any case, we will make the most of what we know and what we can do, providing for piece-by-piece modifications as we learn to do things better.
AMBROGIO: I understand: you are a partisan of the prise au tas, as your comrades from France would say, that is to say each person produces what he likes and throws in the heap, or, if you prefer, brings to the communal warehouse what he has produced; and each takes from the heap ever he likes and whatever he needs. Isn’t that so?
GIORGIO: I notice that you decided to inform yourself a little about this issue, and I guess that you have read the trial documents more carefully than you normally do when you send us to jail. If all magistrates and policemen did this, the things that they steal from us during the searches would at least be useful for something!
But, let’s return to our discussion. Even this formula of take from the heap is only a form of words, that expresses an inclination to substitute for the market spirit of today the spirit of fraternity and solidarity, but it doesn’t indicate with any certainty a definite method of social organisation. Perhaps you could find among us some who take that formula literally, because they suppose that work undertaken spontaneously would always be abundant and that products would accumulate in such quantity and variety that rules about work or consumption would be pointless. But I don’t think like that: *I believe, as I’ve told you, that humans always have more needs than the means to satisfy them and I am glad of it because this is a spur to progress; and I think that, even if we could, **it would be an absurd waste of energy to produce blindly to provide for all possible needs, rather than calculating the actual needs and organising to satisfy them with as little effort as possible. . t So, once again, the solution lies in accord between people and in the agreements, ***expressed or silent, that will come about when they have achieved equality of conditions and are inspired by a feeling of solidarity.
*again.. don’t think this is true of legit free people
**huge. yeah that.. org around legit needs
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
***quiet enough ness.. hari rat park law.. let’s do this first
Try to enter into the spirit of our programme, and don’t worry overmuch about formulas that, in our party just like any other, are not pithy and striking but are always a vague and inexact way of expressing a broad direction.
AMBROGIO: But don’t you realise that communism is the negation of liberty, and of human personality? Perhaps, it may have existed in the beginning of humanity, when human beings, scarcely developed intellectually and morally, were happy when they could satisfy their material appetites as members of the horde. Perhaps it is possible in a religious society, or a monastic order, that seeks the suppression of human passion, and prides itself on the incorporation of the individual into the religious community and claims obedience to be a prime duty. But in a modern society, in which there is a great flowering of civilization produced by the free activity of individuals, with the need for independence and liberty that torments and ennobles modern man, communism is not an impossible dream, it is a return to barbarism. Every activity would be paralysed; every promising contest where one could distinguish oneself, assert one’s own individuality, extinguished…
GIORGIO: And so on, and so on.
Come on. Don’t waste your eloquence. These are well-known stock phrases… and are no more than a lot of brazen and irresponsible lies. Liberty, individuality of those who die of hunger! What crude irony! What profound hypocrisy!.t
this is ridiculous ness et al
You defend a society in which the great majority lives in bestial conditions, a society in which workers die of privation and of hunger, in which children die by the thousands and millions for lack of care, in which women prostitute themselves because of hunger, in which ignorance clouds the mind, in which even those who are educated must sell their talent and lie in order to eat, in which nobody is sure of tomorrow — and you dare talk of liberty and individuality?..t
Perhaps, liberty and the possibility of developing one’s own individuality exist for you, for a small caste of privileged people… and perhaps not even for them. These same privileged persons are victims of the struggle between one human being and another that pollutes all social life, and they would gain substantially if they were able to live in a society of mutual trust, free among the free, equal among equals..t
none of us are free.. berners-lee everyone law et al
However can you maintain the view that solidarity damages liberty and the development of the individual? If we were discussing the family — and we will discuss it whenever you want — you could not fail to let loose one of the usual conventional hymns to that holy institution, that foundation stone etc. etc. Well, in the family what is it we extol, if not that which generally exists — the love and solidarity prevailing among its members. Would you maintain that the family members would be freer and their individuality more developed if instead of loving each other and working together for the common good, they were to steal, hate and hit one another?
AMBROGIO: But to regulate society like a family, to organise and to make a communist society function, you need an immense centralisation, an iron despotism, and an omnipresent state. Imagine what oppressive power a government would have that could dispose of all social wealth and assign to everyone the work they must do and the goods they could consume!
GIORGIO: Certainly if communism was to be what you imagine it to be and how it is conceived by a few authoritarian schools then it would be an impossible thing to achieve, or, if possible, would end up as a colossal and very complex tyranny, that would then inevitably provoke a great reaction.
But there is none of this in the communism that we want. We want free communism, anarchism, if the word doesn’t offend you. In other words, we want a communism which is freely organised, from bottom to top, starting from individuals that unite in associations which slowly grow bit by bit into ever more complex federations of associations, finally embracing the whole of humanity in a general agreement of cooperation and solidarity. And just as this communism will be freely, constituted, it must freely maintain itself through the will of those involved.
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
AMBROGIO: But for this to become possible you would need human beings to be angels, for everyone to be altruists! Instead people are by nature egoistical, wicked, hypocritical and lazy.
myth of tragedy and lord et al
GIORGIO: Certainly, because for communism to become possible there is a need that human beings, partly because of an impulse toward sociability and partly from a clear understanding of their interests, don’t bear each other ill-will but want to get on and to practice mutual aid. But this state is far from seeming an impossibility, is even now normal and common. The present social organisation is a permanent cause of antagonism and conflict between classes and individuals: and if despite this society is still able to maintain itself and doesn’t literally degenerate into a pack of wolves devouring each other, it is precisely because of the profound human instinct for society that produces the thousand acts of solidarity, of sympathy, of devotion, of sacrifice that are carried out every moment, without them even being thought about, that makes possible the continuance of society, notwithstanding the causes of disintegration that it carries within itself.
myth of normal ness
Human beings are, by nature, both egoistic and altruistic, biologically pre-determined I would say prior to society. If humans had not been egoistic, if, that is to say, they had not had the instinct of self-preservation, they could not have existed as individuals; and if they hadn’t been altruistic, in other words if they hadn’t had the instinct of sacrificing themselves for others, the first manifestation of which one finds in the love of one’s children, they could not have existed as a species, nor, most probably, have developed a social life.
already in all of us.. if we can just uncover.. listen.. that deep.. so.. devijver assume good law et al
The coexistence of the egoistic and the altruistic sentiment and the impossibility in existing society of satisfying both ensures that today no one is satisfied, not even those who are in privileged positions. On the other hand communism is the social form in which egoism and altruism mingle — and every person will accept it because it benefits everybody.
undisturbed ecosystem.. brown belonging law.. et al
GIORGIO: Truly there is a great difference; because the bourgeois not only take part of what we produce, but they prevent us from producing what we want and how we want to produce it. *Nonetheless I am by no means saying that we should maintain idlers, when they are in such numbers as to cause damage: I am very afraid that idleness and the habit of living off others may lead to a desire to command. Communism is a free agreement: who doesn’t accept it or maintain it, remains outside of it.
oi.. red flag.. has to be sans any form of m\a\p
GIORGIO: I had foreseen this: first you were against communism because you said that it needed a strong and centralised government; now that you have heard talk of a society without government, you would even accept communism, so long as there was a government with an iron fist. In short, it is liberty which scares you most of all!
graeber fear of play law et al
AMBROGIO: But this is to jump out of the frying pan into the fire! What is certain is that a society without a government cannot exist. How would you expect things to work, without rules, without regulations of any kind? What will happen is that someone will steer to the right, somebody else to the left and the ship will remain stationary, or more likely, go to the bottom.
GIORGIO: I did not say that I do not want rules and regulations. I said to you that I don’t want a Government, and by government I mean a power that makes laws and imposes them on everybody.
rather.. any form of m\a\p
AMBROGIO: But if this government is elected by the people doesn’t it represent the will of those same people? What could you complain about?
representation ness.. (explained really well in next bit.. huge)
GIORGIO: This is simply a lie. A general, abstract, popular will is no more than a metaphysical fancy. The public is comprised of people, and people have a thousand different and varying wills according to variations in temperament and in circumstances, and expecting to extract from them, through the magic operation of the ballot box, a general will common to all is simply an absurdity. It would be impossible even for a single individual to entrust to somebody else the execution of their will on all the questions that could arise during a given period of time; because they themselves could not say in advance what would be their will on these various occasions. . t How could one speak for a collectivity, people, whose members at the very time of producing a mandate were already in disagreement among themselves?
public consensus always oppresses someone(s)
Just think for a moment at the way elections are held — and note that, I intend speaking about the way they would work if all the people were educated and independent and thus the vote perfectly conscious and free. You, for instance, would vote for whoever you regard as best suited to serve your interests and to apply your ideas. This is already conceding a lot, because you have so many ideas and so many different interests that you would not know how to find a person that thinks always like you on all issues: but will it be then to such a person that you will give your vote and who will govern you? By no means. Your candidate might not be successful and so your will forms no part of the so called popular will: but let’s suppose that they do succeed.
On this basis would this person be your ruler? Not even in your dreams. They would only be one among many (in the Italian parliament for instance one among 535) and you in reality will be ruled by a majority of people to whom you have never given your mandate. .tAnd this majority (whose members have received many different or contradictory mandates, or better still have received only a general delegation of power, without any specific mandate) unable, even if it wanted to, to ascertain a non-existent general will, and to make everybody happy, will do as it wishes, or will follow the wishes of those who dominate it at a particular moment.
voting ness et al
Come on, it’s better to leave aside this old-fashioned pretence of a government that represents the popular will..t
There are certainly some questions of general order, about which at a given moment, all the people will agree. But, then, what is the point of government? When everybody wants something, they will only need to enact it.
AMBROGIO: Well in short, you have admitted that there is a need for rules, some norms for living. Who should establish them?
GIORGIO: The interested parties themselves, those who must follow these regulations.
AMBROGIO: Who would impose observance?
GIORGIO: No-one, because we are talking about norms which are freely accepted and freely followed. Don’t confuse the norms of which I speak, that are practical conventions based on a feeling of solidarity and on the care that everyone must have for the collective interest, with the law which is a rule written by a few and imposed with force on everybody. We don’t want laws, but free agreements.
AMBROGIO: And if someone violates the agreement?
GIORGIO: And why should someone violate an agreement with which they have has concurred? On the other hand, if some violations were to take place, they would serve as a notification that the agreement does not satisfy everybody and will have to be modified. And everybody will search for a better arrangement, because it is in everybody’s interest that nobody is unhappy.
matters how we gather in a space
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
AMBROGIO : But it seems that you long for a primitive society in which everyone is self-sufficient and the relations between people are few, basic and restricted.
GIORGIO: Not at all. Since from the moment that social relations multiply and become more complex, humanity experiences greater moral and material satisfaction, we will seek relationships as numerous and complex as possible.
infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness
AMBROGIO: But then you will need to delegate functions, to give out tasks, to nominate representatives in order to establish agreements.
GIORGIO : Certainly. But don’t think that this is equivalent to nominating a government. The government makes laws and enforces them, while in a free society delegation of power is only for particular, temporary tasks, for certain jobs, and does not give rights to any authority nor any special reward. And the resolutions of the delegates are always subject to the approval of those they represent.
AMBROGIO: But you don’t imagine that everyone will always agree. If there are some people that your social order does not suit, what will you do?
GIORGIO: Those people will make whatever arrangements best suit them, and we and they will reach an agreement to avoid bothering each other.
AMBROGIO: And if the others want to make trouble?
GIORGIO: Then… we will defend ourselves.
oi.. rather.. see that as red flag.. ie: haven’t yet let go of any form of m\a\p
gershenfeld something else law et al
AMBROGIO: Ah! But don’t you see that from this need for defence a new government might arise?
GIORGIO: Certainly I see it: and it is precisely because of this that I’ve always said that anarchism is not possible until the most serious causes of conflict are eliminated, a social accord serves the interests of all, and the spirit of solidarity is well developed among humanity..t
If you want to create anarchism today, leaving intact individual property and the other social institutions that derive from it, such a civil war would immediately break out that a government, even a tyranny, would be welcomed as a blessing.. t
hari rat park law et al
But if at the same time that you establish anarchism you *abolish individual property, the causes of conflict that will survive will not be insurmountable and we will reach an agreement, because with agreement everyone will be advantaged.
*rather.. need to abolish.. let go of.. any form of m\a\p
After all, it is understood that institutions are only worth as much as the people that make them function — and anarchism in particular, that is the reign of free agreement, cannot exist if people do not understand the benefits of solidarity and don’t want to agree.
That is why we engage in spreading propaganda.
GIORGIO: But in short, what is it that you find obscure or unacceptable in the explanation that I have given you.
AMBROGIO: There is… I don’t know… the whole system.
Let’s leave aside the question of right, on which we will not agree; but let us suppose that, as you maintain, we all have an equal right to enjoy the existing wealth, I admit that communism would seem to be the most expeditious arrangement and perhaps the best. But, what seems to me absolutely impossible, is a society without government.
You build the whole of your edifice on the free will of the members of the association…
GIORGIO: Precisely.. t
yeah that.. if we could only let go enough to try that
AMBROGIO: And this is your error. Society means hierarchy, discipline, the submission of the individual to the collective. Without authority no society is possible.
GIORGIO. Exactly the reverse. A society in the strict sense of the word can only exist among equals; and these equals make agreements among themselves if in them they find pleasure and convenience, but they will not submit to each other.. t
brown belonging law: the opposite of belonging.. is fitting in.. true belonging doesn’t require you to change who you are.. it requires you to be who you are.. and that’s vulnerable.. –Brené Brown
Those relations of hierarchy and submission, that to you seem the essence of society, are relations between slaves and masters: and you would admit, I hope, that the slave is not really the partner of the master, just as a domestic animal is not the partner of the person who possesses it.
AMBROGIO: But do you truly believe in a society in which each person does what they want!
GIORGIO: On condition it’s understood that people want to live in a society and therefore will adapt themselves to the necessities of social life.
AMBROGIO: And if they don’t wish to?
GIORGIO: Then society would not be possible. But since it is only within society that humanity, at least in its modern form, can satisfy its material and moral needs, it is a strange supposition that we would wish to renounce what is the precondition of life and well being.
People have difficulty in coming to agreement when they discuss matters in abstract terms; but as soon as there is something to do, that must be done and which is of interest to everybody, as long as no one has the means to impose their will on others and to force them to do things their way, obstinacy and stubbornness soon cease, they become conciliatory, and the thing is done with the maximum possible satisfaction to everyone.
You must understand: nothing human is possible without the will of humanity. The whole problem for us lies in changing this will, that is to say it means making people understand that to war against each other, to hate each other, to exploit each other, is to lose everything, and persuading them to wish for a social order founded on mutual support and on solidarity.. t
need means to undo hierarchical listening
imagine if we listened to the itch/will 1st thing everyday & used that to connect us
AMBROGIO: So to bring about your anarchist communism you must wait until everybody is so persuaded, and has the will to make it work.
GIORGIO: Oh, no! We’d be kidding ourselves! Will is mostly determined by the social environment, and it is probable that while the present conditions last, the great majority will continue to believe that society cannot be organized in other ways from what now exists.
so will and legit itch not same to him
AMBROGIO: Well then?!
GIORGIO: So, we will create communism and anarchism among ourselves… when we are in sufficient numbers to do it — convinced that if others see that we are doing well for ourselves, they will soon follow suit Or, at least, if we cannot achieve communism and anarchism, we will work to change social conditions in such a way as to produce a change of will in the desired direction.. t
gershenfeld something else law.. hari rat park law.. et al
You must understand; this is about a reciprocal interaction between the will and the surrounding social conditions… We are doing and will do whatever we can do so that we move towards our ideal.
What you must clearly understand is this. We do not want to coerce the will of anyone; but we do not want others to coerce our will nor that of the public. We rebel against that minority which through violence exploits and oppresses the people. Once liberty is won for ourselves and for all, and, it goes without saying, the means to be free, in other words the right to the use of land and of the instruments of production, we will rely solely on the force of words and examples to make our ideas triumph.. t
graeber model law.. and today have means to leap to a global re\set.. in sync detox is huge.. the thing we haven’t had means to before..
AMBROGIO: All right; and you think that in this way we will arrive at a society that governs itself simply through the voluntary agreement of its members? If that is the case it would be a thing without precedent!
GIORGIO: Not as much as you might think. As a matter of fact, in essence it has always been like that… that is if one considers the defeated, the dominated, the oppressed drawn from the lower levels of humanity, as not really part of society.
After all, even today the essential part of social life, in the dominant class as in the dominated class, is accomplished through spontaneous agreements, often unconscious, between individuals: by virtue of custom, points of honour, respect for promises, fear of public opinion, a sense of honesty, love, sympathy, rules of good manners — without any intervention by the law and the government. Law and governments become necessary only when we deal with relations between the dominators and the dominated. Among equals everyone feels ashamed to call a policeman, or have recourse to a judge!
In despotic States, where all the inhabitants are treated like a herd in the service of the sole ruler, no one has a will but the sovereign… and those whom the sovereign needs to keep the masses submissive. But, little by little as others arrive and achieve emancipation and enter the dominant class, that is society in the strict sense of the word, either through direct participation in government or by means of possessing wealth, society moulds itself in ways which satisfy the will of all the dominators. The whole legislative and executive apparatus, the whole government with its laws, soldiers, policemen, judges etc. serve only to regulate and ensure the exploitation of the people. Otherwise, the owners would find it simpler and more economical to agree among themselves and do away with the state. The bourgeois themselves have voiced the same opinion… when for a moment they forget that without soldiers and policemen the people would spoil the party.
structural violence et al
Destroy class divisions, make sure that there are no more slaves to keep in check, and immediately the state will have no more reason to exist.
AMBROGIO: But don’t exaggerate. The State also does things of benefit to all. It educates, watches over public health, defends the lives of citizens, organises public services... don’t tell me that these are worthless or damaging things!
GIORGIO: Ugh! — Done the way the State usually does it, that is hardly at all. The truth is that it is always the workers who really do those things, and the State, setting itself up as their regulator, transforms such services into instruments of domination, turning them to the special advantage of the rulers and owners.
that is true.. but also.. ed/health et al.. cancerous distractions.. chasing problems (ignorant, ill) caused by not let go enough
*Education spreads, if there is in the public the desire for instruction and if there are teachers capable of educating; public health thrives, when the public knows, appreciates and can put into practice public health rules, and when there are doctors capable of giving people advice; the lives of citizens are safe when the people are accustomed to consider life and human liberties sacred and when… there are no judges and no police force to provide examples of brutality; public services will be organised when the public feels the need for them.
*oi.. yuck.. don’t say that
The State does not create anything: at best it is only other a superfluity, a worthless waste of energy. But if only it was just useless!
AMBROGIO: Leave it there. In any case I think you have said enough. I want to reflect upon it.
Until we meet again…
all.. but bottom part is off
GIORGIO: Yes, of course. Whatever needs to be maintained, there is always a scientist willing to maintain it. (as sarcasm)
science scientifically et al
AMBROGIO: All right; but let’s look at the question of the family. Do you want to abolish it or organise it on another basis?
GIORGIO: Look. As far as the family is concerned we need to consider the economic relations, the sexual relations, and the relations between parents and children.
Insofar as the family is an economic institution it is clear that once individual property is abolished and as a consequence inheritance, it has no more reason to exist and will de facto disappear. In this sense, however, the family is already abolished for the great majority of the population, which is composed of proletarians.
maté parenting law.. graeber parent/care law.. nika & silvia on divorce.. marriage\ing.. et al
AMBROGIO: And as far as sexual relations? Do you want free love, do…
GIORGIO: Oh, come on! Do you think that enslaved love could really exist? Forced cohabitation exists, as does feigned and forced love, for reasons of interest or of social convenience; probably there will be men and women who will respect the bond of matrimony because of religious or moral convictions; but true love cannot exist, can not be conceived, if it is not perfectly free.
AMBROGIO: This is true, but if everyone follows the fancies inspired by the god of love, there will be no more morals and the world will become a brothel.
GIORGIO: As far as morals are concerned, you can really brag about the results of your institutions! Adultery, lies of every sort, long cherished hatreds, husbands that kill wives, wives that poison husbands, infanticide, children growing up amidst scandals and family brawls… And this is the morality that you fear is being threatened by free love?
Today the world is a brothel, because women are often forced to prostitute themselves through hunger; and because matrimony, frequently contracted through a pure calculation of interest, is throughout the whole of its duration a union into which love either does not enter at all, or enters only as an accessory.
Assure everyone of the means to live properly and independently, give women the complete liberty to dispose of their own bodies, destroy the prejudices, religious and otherwise, that bind men and women to a mass of conventions that derive from slavery and which perpetuate it and sexual unions will be made of love, and will give rise to the happiness of individuals and the good of the species.
AMBROGIO: But in short, are you in favour of lasting or temporary unions? Do you want separate couples, or a multiplicity and variety of sexual relations, or even promiscuity?
GIORGIO: We want liberty.
Up to now sexual relations have suffered enormously from the pressure of brutal violence, of economic necessity, of religious prejudices and legal regulations, that it has not been possible to work out what is the form of sexual relations which best corresponds to the physical and moral well being of individuals and the species.
Certainly, once we eliminate the conditions that today render the relations between men and women artificial and forced, a sexual hygiene and a sexual morality will be established that will be respected, not because of the law, but through the conviction, based on experience, that they satisfy our well being and that of the species. This can only come about as the effect of liberty.
AMBROGIO: And the children?
GIORGIO: You must understand that once we have property in common, and establish on a solid moral and material base the principle of social solidarity, the maintenance of the children will be the concern of the community, and their education will be the care and responsibility of everyone.
just let go of that .. otherwise.. huge
your own song ness et al
Probably all men and all women will love all the children; and if, as I believe is certain, parents have a special affection for their own children, they can only be delighted to know that the future of their children is secure, having for their maintenance and their education the cooperation of the whole society.
AMBROGIO: But, you do, at least, respect parents’ rights over their children?
GIORGIO: Rights over children are composed of duties. One has many rights over them, that is to say many rights to guide them and to care for them, to love them and to worry about them: and since parents generally love their children more than anyone else, it is usually their duty and their right to provide for their needs. It isn’t necessary to fear any challenges to this, because if a few unnatural parents give their children scant love and do not look after them they will be content that others will take care of the children and free them of the task.
If by a parent’s rights over their children you mean the right to maltreat, corrupt and exploit them, then I absolutely reject those rights, and I think that no society worthy of the name would recognize and put up with them.
AMBROGIO: But don’t you think that by entrusting the responsibility for the maintenance of children to the community you will provoke such an increase in population that there will no longer be enough for everyone to live on. But of course, you won’t want to hear any talk of Malthusianism and will say that it is an absurdity.
GIORGIO: I told you on another occasion that it is absurd to pretend that the present poverty depends on overpopulation and absurd to wish to propose remedies based on Malthusian practices. But I am very willing to recognise the seriousness of the population question, and I admit that in the future, when every new born child is assured of support, poverty could be reborn due to a real excess of population. Emancipated and educated men, when they think it necessary, will consider placing a limit to the overly rapid multiplication of the species; but I would add that they will think seriously about it only when hoarding and privileges, obstacles placed upon production by the greediness of the proprietors and all the social causes of poverty are eliminated, only then will the necessity of achieving a balance between the number of living beings, production capacities, and available space, appear to everyone clear and simple.
oi.. not legit free then.. rather graeber stop at enough law et al
AMBROGIO: And if people don’t want to think about it?
GIORGIO: Well then, all the worse for them!
You don’t want to understand: there is no providence, whether divine or natural, that looks after the well-being of humanity. People have to procure their own well-being, doing what they think is useful and necessary to reach this goal.
You always say: but what if they don’t want to? In this case they will achieve nothing and will always remain at the mercy of the blind forces that surround them.
So it is today: people don’t know what to do to become free, or if they know, don’t want to do what needs to be done to liberate themselves. And thus, they remain slaves.
But we hope that sooner than you might think they will know what to do and be capable of doing it.
Then they will be free.
let’s do this first: free art\ists
GIORGIO: I think I have already told you: we want a society in which everyone has the means to live as they like, where no one can force others to work for them, where no one can compel another to submit to their will. Once two principles are put into practice, liberty for all and the instruments of production for all, everything else will follow naturally, through force of circumstances, and the new society will organise itself in the way that agrees best with the interests of all.
ie: org around legit needs.. sans any form of m\a\p
AMBROGIO: But, you would surely allow some ethical principles, superior to the wills and caprices of humanity, and to which everyone is obliged to conform… at least morally?
GIORGIO: What is this morality that is superior to the will of men? Who prescribed it? From whence does it derive?
Morals change according to the times, the countries, the classes, the circumstances. They express what people at given moments and in given circumstances, regard as the best conduct. In short, for each person good morals accord with what they like or what pleases them, for material or for emotional reasons.
‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows
For you morality enjoins respect for the law, that is, submission to the privileges enjoyed by your class; for us it demands a revolt against oppression and the search for the well being of everyone. For us all moral prescriptions are comprehended by love between people.
AMBROGIO: And the criminals? Will you respect their liberty?
GIORGIO: We believe that to act criminally means to violate the liberty of others. When the criminals are many and powerful and have organised their dominance on a stable basis, as is the case, today, with the owners and rulers, there needs to be a revolution to liberate oneself.
When, on the contrary, criminality is reduced to individual cases of unsuitable behaviour or of illness, we will attempt to find the causes and to introduce them to appropriate remedies.
oi.. red flag ness
AMBROGIO: In the meantime? You will need a police force, a magistrature, a penal code, some gaolers, etc…
GIORGIO: And therefore, you would say, the reconstitution of a government, the return to the state of oppression under which we live today.
In fact, the major damage caused by crime is not so much the single and transitory instance of the violation of the rights of a few individuals, but the danger that it will serve as an opportunity and pretext for the constitution of an authority that, with the outward appearance of defending society will subdue and oppress it.
We already know the purpose of the police and the magistrature, and how they are the cause rather than the remedy of innumerable crimes.
We need therefore to try to destroy crime by eliminating the causes; and when there remains a residue of criminals, the collective directly concerned should think of placing them in a position where they can do no harm, without delegating to anyone the specific function of persecuting criminals.
ie: missing pieces
You do know the story of the horse which asked protection from a man, and allowed him to mount on its back?
AMBROGIO: All right. At this point I am only seeking some information and not a discussion.
Another thing. Seeing that in your society all are socially equal, all have a right to the same access to education and development, all have full liberty to choose their own life, how are you going to provide for the necessary tasks. There are pleasant and laborious jobs, healthy and unhealthy jobs. Naturally each person will choose the better jobs — who would do the others, that are often the most necessary?
kropotkin dirty jobs law et al
And then there is the great division between intellectual and manual labour. Don’t you think that everyone would like to be doctors, litterati, poets, and that no one would wish to cultivate the land, make shoes etc. etc. Well?
GIORGIO: You want to look forward to a future society, a society of equality, liberty and above all solidarity and free agreement, presuming the continuation of the moral and material conditions of today. Naturally the thing appears and is impossible.
hari rat park law.. for (blank)’s sake
GIORGIO: Nevermind all that, Signor Ambrogio. You are a magistrate, but I don’t like having to repeat that this is not a tribunal, and, for the moment at least, I am not a defendant, from whose mouth it would be in your interest to draw some imprudent remark.
The revolution will be violent because you, the dominant class, maintain yourselves with violence and don’t show any inclination to give up peacefully. So there will be gunfire, bombs, radio waves that will explode your deposits of explosives and the cartridges in the cartridge-boxes of your soldiers from a distance… all this may happen. These are technical questions that, if you like, we’ll leave to the technicians.
oh my.. huge red flag ness
What I can assure you of is that, as far as it depends on us, the violence, which has been imposed on us by your violence, will not go beyond the narrow limits indicated by the necessity of the struggle, that is to say that it will above all be determined by the resistance you offer. If the worst should happen, it will be due to your obstinacy and the bloodthirsty education that, by your example, you are providing to the public.
oi.. red red flag ness.. if worst should happen.. means we didn’t org around legit needs .. needs that 8b (aka: all of us.. has to be all of us) already crave
VINCENZO [Young Republican]: Permit me to enter into your conversation so that I can ask a few questions and make a few observations?… Our friend Giorgio talks of anarchism, but says that anarchism must come freely, without imposition, through the will of the people. And he also says that to give a free outlet to the people’s will there is a need to demolish by insurrection the monarchic and militarist regime which today suffocates and falsifies this will. This is what the republicans want, at least the revolutionary republicans, in other words those who truly want to make the republic. Why then don’t you declare yourself a republican?
In a republic the people are sovereign, and if one does what the people want, and they want anarchism there will be anarchism.
GIORGIO: Truly I believe I have always spoken of the will of humanity and not the will of the people, . t and if I said the lalter it was a form of words, an inexact use of language, that the whole of my conversation serves, after all, to correct.
VINCENZO: But, what is all this concern with words?!! Isn’t the public made up of human beings?
GIORGIO: It is not a question of words. It is a question of substance: it is all the difference between democracy, which means the government of the people, and anarchism, which does not mean government, but liberty for each and everyone..t
huge to any form of democratic admin as red flag
*The people are certainly made up of humanity, that is of a conscious unity, interdependent as far as they choose, but **each person has their own sensitivities and their own interests, passions, particular wills, that, according to the situation, augment or annul each other, reinforce or neutralise each other in turn. ***The strongest, the best-armed will, of an individual, of a party, of a class able to dominate, imposes itself and succeeds in passing itself off as the will of all; in reality that which calls itself the will of the people is the will of those who dominate — or it’s a hybrid product of numerical calculations which don’t exactly correspond to the will of anyone and which satisfies no-one..t
*well.. not really.. all like whales in sea world
and so.. **not really as well.. need detox first
***huge.. public consensus always oppresses someone(s)
Already by their own statements the democrats, that is the republicans (because they are the only true democrats) admit that the so-called government of the people is only the government of the majority, which expresses and carries out its will by means of its representatives. Therefore the “sovereignty” of the minority is simply a nominal right that does not translate into action; and note that this “minority” in addition to being often the most advanced and progressive part of the population, may also be the numerical majority when a minority united by a community of interests or ideas, or by their submission to a leader, find themselves facing many discordant factions.
VINCENZO: But in that case, since anarchism is not possible today, must we calmly support the monarchy for who knows how long?
GIORGIO: By no means. You can count on our cooperation, just as we will be asking for yours, provided that the circumstances become favourable to an insurrectionary movement. Naturally the range of contributions that we will strive to give to that movement will be much broader than yours, but this does not invalidate the common interest we have in the shaking off the yoke that today oppresses both of us. Afterwards we will see.
In the meantime let us spread propaganda together and try to prepare the masses so that the next revolutionary movement sets in train the most profound social transformation possible, and leaves open, broadly and easily, the road toward further progress.
there’s a nother way
CESARE: Let’s resume our usual conversation.
Apparently, the thing that most immediately interests you is the insurrection; and I admit that, however difficult it seems, it could be staged and won, sooner or later. In essence governments rely on soldiers; and the conscripted soldiers, who are forced reluctantly into the army barracks, are an unreliable weapon. Faced with a general uprising of the people, the soldiers who are themselves of the people, won’t hold on for long; and as soon as the charm and the fear of discipline is broken, they will either disband or join the people.
I admit therefore that by spreading a lot of propaganda among the workers and the soldiers, or among the youth who tomorrow will be soldiers, you put yourselves in a position to take advantage of a favourable situation — economic crises, unsuccessful war, general strike, famine etc. etc. — to bring down the government.
You will tell me: the people themselves will decide, organise, etc. But these are words. What will probably take place is that after a shorter or longer period of disorder, of dissipation and probably of massacres, a new government will take the place of the other, will re-establish order… and everything will continue as before.
To what purpose then was such a waste of energy?
GIORGIO: If it should occur as you suggest, it does not mean that the insurrection would have been useless. After a revolution things do not return to as they were before because the people have enjoyed a period of liberty and have tested their own strength, and it is not easy to make them accept once again the previous conditions. The new government, if government there has to be, will feel that it cannot remain safely in power unless it gives some satisfaction, and normally it tries to justify its rise to power by giving itself the title of interpreter and successor of the revolution.
Naturally the real task the government will set itself will be to prevent the revolution going any further and to restrict and to alter, with the aim of domination, the gains of the revolution; but it could not return things to how they were before.
This is what has happened in all past revolutions.
However we have reason to hope that in the next revolution we will do a lot better.
GIORGIO: Because in past revolutions all the revolutionaries, all the initiators and principal actors of the revolution wanted to transform society by means of laws and wanted a government that would make and impose those laws. It was inevitable therefore that it would produce a new government —t and it was natural that a new government thought first of all of governing, that is of consolidating its power and, in order to do this, of forming around itself a party and a privileged class with a common interest in it remaining permanently in power.
need to try something legit diff
But now a new factor has appeared in history, which is represented by anarchists. Now there are revolutionaries who want to make a revolution with distinctly anti-government aims, therefore the establishment of a new government would face an obstacle that has never been found in the past.
but none have yet.. why not yet ness et al
Furthermore, past revolutionaries, wanting to make the social transformation they desired by means of laws, addressed the masses solely for the basic cooperation they could provide, and did not bother to give them a consciousness of what could be wished for and of the way in which they could fulfil their aspirations. So, naturally, the people, liable to self-destruction, themselves asked for a government, when there was a need to reorganise everyday social life.
On the other hand, with our propaganda and with workers’ organisations we aim to form a conscious minority that knows what it wants to do, and which, intermingled with the masses, could provide for the immediate necessities and take those initiatives, which on other occasions were waited for from the government.
yeah.. have let go enough yet to org around legit needs
CESARE: Very well; but since you will only be a minority, and probably in many parts of the country you will not have any influence, a government will be established just the same and you will have to endure it.
GIORGIO: It is more than likely that a government will succeed in establishing itself; but whether we’ll have to put up with it… that we will see.
Note this well. In past revolutions there was a primary concern to create a new government and the orders were awaited from this government. And in the meantime things remained substantially the same, or rather the economic conditions of the masses deteriorated because of the interruption of industry and commerce. Therefore people quickly became tired of it all; there was a hurry to get it over and done with and hostility from the public towards those who wanted to prolong the state of insurrection for too long. And so whoever demonstrated a capacity to restore order, whether it be a soldier of fortune, or a shrewd and daring politician, or possibly the some sovereign who had been thrown out, would be welcomed with popular applause as a peacemaker and a liberator.
kept trying to restore order et al.. carhart-harris entropy law et al
We on the contrary understand revolution very differently. We want the social transformation at which the revolution aims to begin to be realised from the first insurrectional act. We want the people immediately to take possession of existing wealth; declare gentlemen’s mansions public domain, and provide through voluntary and active initiatives minimal housing for all the population, and at once put in hand through the work of the constructor’s association, the construction of as many new houses as is considered necessary. We want to make all the available food products community property and organise, always through voluntary operations and under the true control of the public, an equal distribution for all. We want the agricultural workers to take possession of uncultivated land and that of the landowners and by so doing convince the latter that now the land belongs to the labourers. We want workers to remove themselves from the direction of the owners and continue production on their own account and for the public. We would like to establish at once exchange relationships among the diverse productive associations and the different communes; — and at the same time we want to burn, to destroy, all the titles and all material signs of individual property and state domination. In short, we want from the first moment to make the masses feel the benefits of the revolution and so disturb things that it will be impossible to re-establish the ancient order.
for that.. need to org around something 8b people already crave.. ie: missing pieces
CESARE: And do you think that all of this is easy to carry out?
GIORGIO: No, I’m well aware of all the difficulties that we will be confronting; I clearly foresee that our programme cannot be applied everywhere at once, and that where applied it will give rise to a thousand disagreements and a thousand errors. But the single fact that there are people who want to apply it and will try and to apply it wherever possible, is already a guarantee that at this point the revolution can no longer be a simple political transformation and must put in train a profound change in the whole of social life.
Moreover, the bourgeoisie did something similar in the great French Revolution at the end of the 18th century, although to a smaller degree, and the ancien régime could not re-establish itself notwithstanding the Empire and the Restoration.
CESARE: But if, despite all your good or bad intentions, a government establishes itself, all your projects will go up in the air, and you would have to submit to the law like everybody else.
GIORGIO: And why is that?
That a government or governments will establish itself is certainly very probable. There are a lot of people that like to command and a lot more that are disposed to obey!
But it is very difficult to see how this government could impose itself, make itself accepted and become a regular government, if there are enough revolutionaries in the country, and they have learned enough to involve the masses in preventing a new government finding a way to become strong and stable.
A government needs soldiers, and we will do everything possible to deny them soldiers; a government needs money and we will do all we can to ensure that no one pays taxes and no one gives it credit.
There are some municipalities and perhaps some regions in Italy where revolutionaries are fairly numerous and the workers quite prepared to proclaim themselves autonomous and look after their own affairs, refusing to recognise the government and to receive its agents or to send representatives to it.
These regions, these municipalities will be centres of revolutionary influence, against which any government will be impotent, if we act quickly and do not give it time to arm and consolidate itself.
CESARE: But this is civil war!
GIORGIO: It may very well be. We are for peace, we yearn for peace… but we will not sacrifice the revolution to our desire for peace. We will not sacrifice it because only by this route can we reach a true and permanent peace.
oi.. huge red flag it won’t (and 100 yrs later) didn’t work
GINO [Worker]: I have heard that you discuss social questions in the evenings and I have come to ask, with the permission of these gentlemen, a question of my friend Giorgio.
Tell me, is it true that you anarchists want to remove the police force.
GIORGIO: Certainly. What! Don’t you agree? Since when have you become a friend of police and carabinieri?
GINO: I am not their friend, and you know it. But I’m also not the friend of murderers and thieves and I would like my goods and my life to be guarded and guarded well.
GIORGIO : And who guards you from the guardians?...
Do you think that men become thieves and murderers without a reason?. t
every actor ness.. has to be all of us for the dance to dance
Do you think that the best way to provide for one’s own security is by offering up one’s neck to a gang of people who, with the excuse of defending us, oppress us and practice extortion, and do a thousand times more damage than all the thieves and all the murderers? Wouldn’t it be better to destroy the causes of evil, doing it in such a way that everybody could live well, without taking bread from the mouths of others, and doing it in a way so that everyone could educate and develop themselves and banish from their hearts the evil passions of jealousy, hatred and revenge?.t
gershenfeld something else law
GINO: Come off it! Human beings are bad by nature, and if there weren’t laws, judges, soldiers and carabinieri to hold us in check, we would devour each other like wolves.
GIORGIO: If this was the case, it would be one more reason for not giving anybody the power to command and to dispose of the liberty of others. Forced to fight against everybody, each person with average strength, would run the same risk in the struggle and could alternatively be a winner and a loser: we would be savages, but at least we could enjoy the relative liberty of the jungle and the fierce emotions of the beasts of prey. But if voluntarily we should give to a few the right and the power to impose their will, then since, according to you, the simple fact of being human predisposes us to devour one another, it will be the same as voting ourselves into slavery and poverty.
this is ridiculous.. this is not ridiculous.. ness
You are deceiving yourself however, my dear friend. Humanity is good or bad according to circumstances. What is common in human beings is the instinct for self-preservation, and an aspiration for well-being and for the full development of one’s own powers. If in order to live well you need to treat others harshly, only a few will have the strength necessary to resist the temptation. But put human beings in a society of their fellow creatures with conditions conducive to well-being and development, and it will need a great effort to be bad, just as today it needs great effort to be good.. t
malatesta conditions law
hari rat park law.. let’s do this first
GINO: All right, it may be as you say. But in the meantime while waiting for social transformation the police prevent crimes from being committed.
police ness et al
GINO: Well then, they prevent a great number of crimes and bring to justice the perpetrators of those offences which they were not able to prevent.
GIORGIO: Not even this is true. The influence of the police on the number and the significance of crimes is almost nothing. In fact, however much the organisation of the magistrature, of the police and the prisons is reformed, or the number of policemen decreased or increased, while the economic and moral conditions of the people remain unchanged, delinquency will remain more or less constant.. t
On the other hand, it only needs the smallest modification in the relations between proprietors and workers, or a change in the price of wheat and other vitally necessary foods, or a crisis that leaves workers without work, or the spreading of our ideas which opens new horizons for people making them smile with new hope, and immediately the effect on the increase or decrease in the number of crimes will be noted.
rather.. need something deeper than food, work, et al.. ie: org around legit needs
The police, it is true, send delinquents to prison, when they can catch them; but this, since it does not prevent new offences, is an evil added to an evil, a further unnecessary suffering inflicted on human beings.
And even if the work of the police force succeeds in putting off a few offences, that would not be sufficient, by a long way, to compensate for the offences it provokes, and the harassment to which it subjects the public.
The very function they carry out makes the police suspicious of, and puts them in conflict with, the whole of the public; it makes them hunters of humanity; it leads them to become ambitious to discover some “great” cases of delinquency, and it creates in them a special mentality that very often leads them to develop some distinctly antisocial instincts. It is not rare to find that a police officer, who should prevent or discover crime, instead provokes it or invents it, to promote their career or simply to make themselves important and necessary.. t
GINO: But, then the policemen themselves would be the same as criminals! Such things occur occasionally, the more so that police personnel are not always recruited from the best part of the population, but in general…
GIORGIO: Generally the background environment has an inexorable effect, and professional distortion strikes even those who call for improvement.
Tell me: what can be, or what can become of the morals of those who are obligated by their salaries, to persecute, to arrest, to torment anyone pointed out to them by their superiors, without worrying whether the person is guilty or innocent, a criminal or an angel?
GINO: Yes… but…
GIORGIO: Let me say a few words about the most important part of the question; in other words, about the so called offences that the police undertake to restrain or prevent.
Certainly among the acts that the law punishes there are those that are and always will be bad actions; but there are exceptions which result from the state of brutishness and desperation to which poverty reduces people.
Generally however the acts that are punished are those which offend against the privileges of the upper-class and those that attack the government in the exercise of its authority. It is in this manner that the police, effectively or not, serve to protect, not society as a whole, but the upper-class, and to keep the people submissive..t
You were talking of thieves. Who is more of a thief than the owners who get wealthy stealing the produce of the workers’ labour?
You were talking about murderers. Who is more of a murderer than capitalists who, by not renouncing the privilege of being in command and living without working, are the cause of dreadful privations and the premature death of millions of workers, let alone a continuing slaughter of children?
These thieves and murderers, far more guilty and far more dangerous than those poor people who are pushed toward crime by the miserable conditions in which they find themselves, are not a concern of the police: quite the contrary!…
GINO: In short, you think that once having made the revolution, humanity will become, out of the blue, so many little angels. Everybody will respect the rights of others; everybody will wish the best for one another and help each other; there will be no more hatreds, nor jealousies… an earthly paradise, what nonsense?!
GIORGIO: Not at all. I don’t believe that moral transformation will come suddenly, out of the blue. Of course, a large, an immense change will take place through the simple fact that bread is assured and liberty gained; but all the bad passions, which have become embodied in us through the age-old influence of slavery and of the struggle between people, will not disappear at a stroke. There will still be for a long time those who will feel tempted to impose their will on others with violence, who will wish to exploit favourable circumstances to create privileges for themselves, who will retain an aversion for work inspired by the conditions of slavery in which today they are forced to labour, and so on.
then to me.. red flag doing it/life wrong.. takes a lot of work ness et al
just need a deeper blue.. and today have means for that
GINO: So even after the revolution we will have to defend ourselves against criminals?
GIORGIO: Very likely. Provided that those who are then considered criminals are not those who rebel rather than dying of hunger, and still less those who attack the existing organisation of society and seek to replace it with a better one; but those who would cause harm to everyone, those who would encroach on personal integrity, liberty and the well being of others.
but people only do that if filling the gaps.. so again.. would be a red flag we didn’t go deep enough (ie: maté basic needs)
PIPPO: All right. But what did you do to stop a possible invasion of Milan by the Germans?
GIORGIO: I didn’t do anything. Actually my friends and I did all we could to keep out of the fray; because we were not able to do what would have been useful and necessary.. t
today we are able..
ie: ai as nonjudgmental expo labeling (means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs)
LUIGI: In fact, I have understood your arguments and we certainly agree on many things, especially the criticisms of capitalism.
But we don’t agree on everything, firstly because anarchists only believe in revolution and renounce the more civilized means of struggle that have replaced those violent methods which were perhaps necessary once upon a time — and secondly, because even if we should conclude with a violent revolution, it would be necessary to put in power a new government to do things in an orderly manner and not leave everything to arbitrary actions and the fury of the masses.
GIORGIO: Well, let’s discuss this further. Do you seriously believe that it is possible radically to transform society, to demolish privileges, throw out the government, expropriate the bourgeoisie without resorting to force?
oi oi oi.. oh my giorgio
a quiet revolution ness et al.. via a nother way (that 8b souls already crave)
I hope that you don’t delude yourself that owners and rulers will surrender without resistance, without making use of the forces at their disposal, and can somehow be persuaded to play the part of sacrificial victims. Otherwise, ask these gentlemen here who, if they could, would get rid of you and me with great pleasure and with great speed.
LUIGI: It may seem like this to you, because you always see things in terms of a world in extreme crisis.
The reverse is true. The world moves a little at a time by gradual evolution.
rather sea world does.. if we want something legit diff.. we need a legit leap.. for (blank)’s sake
humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..
It is necessary for the proletariat to prepare to take over from the bourgeoisie, by educating itself, by organising itself, by sending its representatives to the bodies which decide and make laws; and when it becomes mature it will take everything into its own hands, and the new society to which we aspire will be established.
In all civilized countries the number of socialist deputies is increasing and naturally so too is their support among the masses.
Some day they will certainly be the majority, and if then the bourgeoisie and its government will not give in peacefully and attempts violently to suppress the popular will, we will reply to violence with violence.
It is necessary to take time. It is useless and damaging wanting to try to force the laws of nature and of history.
if legit nature (no legit history to date).. then it takes no time.. damaging.. cancerous distraction to take time..
GIORGIO: Dear Luigi, the laws of nature do not need defenders: they produce respect for themselves. People laboriously discover them and make use of their discovery either to do good or evil; but beware of accepting as natural laws the social facts that interested parties (in our case the economists and sociologists who defend the bourgeoisie) describe as such.
As far as the “laws of history,” they are formulated after history is made. let us first of all make history.
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
The world moves slowly, or quickly, it goes forward or backward, as the result of an indefinite number of natural and human factors, and it is an error to feel confident of a continuous evolution which always moves in the same direction.
At present, it is certainly true that society is in a continuous, slow evolution; but evolution in essence means change, and if some changes are those that lead in the right direction for us, that favour the elevation of humanity towards a superior ideal of community and of liberty, others instead reinforce the existing institutions or drive back and annul the progress already realised.
While people remain in opposition to each other, no gains are secure, no progress in social organisation can be considered definitely won.
again.. humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..
We must utilize and encourage all the elements of progress and combat, obstruct and try to neutralise regressive and conservative forces.
Actually, I would say that if we were to leave things to their natural course, evolution would probably move in the opposite direction to the one we desire, it would move towards the consolidation of privileges, towards a stable equilibrium established in favour of the present rulers, because it is natural that strength belongs to the strong, and who starts the contest with certain advantages over their opponent will always gain more advantages in the course of the struggle.
then it’s not legit natural course..
LUIGI: Perhaps you are right; this is precisely why we need to utilize all the means at our disposal: education, organisation and political struggle…
GIORGIO: All means, yes, but all the means that lead to our goal.
Education, certainly. It is the first thing that is needed, because if we don’t act on the minds of individuals, if we don’t awaken their consciences, if we don’t stimulate their senses, if we don’t excite their will, progress will not be possible. And by education I don’t so much mean book-learning, although, it too is necessary, but not very accessible to proletarians, rather, the education that one acquires through conscious contact with society, propaganda, discussions, concern with public issues, the participation in the struggles for one’s own and others’ improvement.
oh my.. not natural course if there is any form of people telling other people what to do.. any form of m\a\p
This education of the individual is necessary and would be sufficient to transform the world if it could be extended to all.
But, unfortunately, that is not possible. People are influenced, dominated, one could almost say shaped, by the environment in which they live; and when the environment is not suitable one can progress only by fighting against it. At any given moment there are only a limited number of individuals who are capable, either because of inherited capacities or because of specially favourable circumstances, of elevating themselves above the environment, reacting against it and contributing to its transformation.
This is why it is a conscious minority that must break the ice and violently change the exterior circumstances.
oi.. red flag it won’t work.. because means not something all of us already crave.. go deeper
Organisation: A great and necessary thing, provided that it is used to fight the bosses and not to reach an agreement with them.
oh my.. need rather.. to org around legit needs.. sans any form of us & them
Political struggle: Obviously, provided by it we mean struggle against the government and not co-operation with the government.
Pay close attention. If you want to improve the capitalist system and make it tolerable, and hence sanction and perpetuate it, then certain accommodations, certain amounts of collaboration may be acceptable; but if you truly want to overthrow the system, then you must clearly place yourself outside and against the system itself.
no.. rather.. need something for all .. none of us are free ness..
And since the revolution is necessary and since whichever way you look at it the problem will only be solved through revolution, don’t you think we should prepare ourselves from now on, spiritually and materially, instead of deluding the masses and giving them the hope of being able to emancipate themselves without sacrifices and bloody struggles.
cancerous distraction and why we haven’t yet