jordan on civium project

june 2020 18 min video of Jordan Hall – the civium project 01: civium vs city

civium project based on premise and possibility

premise is that the city is foundational to what i’ve called game a.. city is more fundamental than civilization

jim rutt on game b

possibility.. now in threshold we can invent new way of living together.. diff form city

this piece about first proposition

core theory from sante fe institute.. geoffrey west – scale


summary: scaling laws.. sublinear scaling.. living systems.. same scaling dynamic.. that’s a huge finding.. ie: systems have limits to growth built in

4 min – found that human systems (ie: corps; cities) fell into same rules.. rather than doubling 85%

5 min – in these .. a city is like a forest .. but.. and but is the entire point of this series.. w regard to other characteristics.. in cities and only in cities did they not only find a sublinear scaling metric but a superlinear scaling metric

6 min – meant – ie: income per capita.. double population per capita goes up like 15%.. this is a very important thing..  because if choosing between city a and b.. ie: make more money going to city b

distraction man.. let go

7 min – cities are to people like stars are to atoms.. a gravitational attracter .. pack as many into city.. because then increase ie: wealth, innovation.. gives rise to powerful dynamic.. like star.. wants to collapse to singularity.. in city.. facing limits/constraints of space/food.. etc

8 min – so see a seeking of cities to maximally use tech that is available to them.. to over come limitations/constraints of physical bodies.. to get superlinear growth in wealth, innovation, et al

9 min – create fragility.. has capacity to try to figure out how to solve problems.. to support population.. effectively entire pop composed of city and infra.. trying to get everything to center and everything that isn’t in center is just support infra

10 min – then dynamic of packing to limits.. so becoming fragile.. intense as it can.. ie: crime, disease increase superlinearly .. then boom.. get a collapse

11 min – so by hypothesis – collapse of roman empire was in fact collapse of city of rome and everything else was support infra

key idea: city attraction repulsion dynamic fundamental to nature of civilization.. until now

i’m proposing that the core attractor is not the city.. the dynamic is more abstract.. what we’ve seen in the city is really just the fact that bodies are embedded..

12 min – the real driver of superlinear scaling metric.. is minds in relationship.. distinct intelligence interacting thru some mech.. it’s because minds are embodied that we have cities

until very recently the only way for minds to interact.. you had to bring bodies relatively close to each other.. subject to restraints of travel.. then tv.. phone.. radio.. strong to change this .. but still not strong enough

13 min – now may be near or at tipping point.. where things like this medium.. video conference, vr, have enough possibility of relationship in the virtual that we can in fact de couple the attractor and the repulser

so the civium is a concept based on that premise.. concept that says.. if we can render unto the virtual what is best done in the virtual.. render into physical what is best done in physical.. and then bring those back together in proper relationship.. we can change the whole game

what i mean is creative, generative, collab in the virtual.. and now here.. we can have a single city.. one in which at least in principle.. all can be in right relationship.. can communicate.. interelate.. no longer constrained by physicality

14 min – this is also means we have to be thinking very clearly about what are the right ways to bring those minds into relationship..

huge positioning here.. depends if you want all the people to be/stay free/alive.. if you want the energy of 8b alive people.. right way is to tap into 8b daily curiosities first t.. every day..  2 convers as infra to undo our hierarchical listening

14 min – how do we actually build this virtual environ so it’s maximally generative.. we have to take this seriously.. not an adjunct to civilization.. but a fully symmetric basis to civilization with the physical side..t

environ has to be physical/virtual simultaneously

ie: cure ios city

by the way .. this implies that we should get significant increases in wealth/innovation

wrong focus.. esp as you seem to be describing them.. ie: to fix problems; to have money (all your per capita and income rise)

15 min – and now bodies can be returned to more human ness.. a more human way of living.. living in the dunbar limit.. living in nature.. low toxicity..


but has to be all of us at once – across the board [to get to the roots of healing.. it has to be all of us]

humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity ..  simultaneous fittingness..  everyone in sync..

i suspect this is not just awesome.. give us back a whole bunch of values.. going to be obligate to enable virtual to be as powerful as it can

ie: now.. zoom conference very draining.. imagine if when you finish zoom conf.. drop back into context that is extremely nurturing for human beings.. shade tree, swim, people.. grounding to return nervous back into a state of health

17 min – idea is that we can take this powerful generator.. wealth/innovation.. that’s been happening in city .. but increasingly inhumane.. not healthy.. and pop that apart.. and increase to be more generative and more recovering of wholesomeness

and here we are in that pivot point.. quarantine has shown us many of the things we thought we had to do.. much can be done virtually

actually.. deeper.. many of things we thought we had to do.. we don’t have to do at all.. part of the cancer

ie: supposed to’s.. of school/work

18 min – which requires we learn new skills (to do the virtual part) .. which gives rise to opp.. to experiment and see.. what does that look like if we make that fundamental.. and that’s what we’re doing


49 min video with john v – The Civium Project 02: Meta-Psychtech and Civium

we have a lot we have to do.. more at level at culture.. and don’t have much time in which to do it.. trying to design a whole culture.. humanness in relation w nature.. in a couple decades.. not even vaguely done before..

fast..? never before.. in 30 years..? do you get expo ness..?

could do it in much less if we would let go

4 min – we have to invent.. that allows the development in this new thing.. on top of all the old.. that is creating entropy et al.. individual beings trying to do this are very broken.. so that’s what is against us

entropy et al.. part of solution.. if we go deep enough

for us.. we have 8b minds.. and all can communicate.. instantaneously .. super new.. level of possibility.. larger than scope of problem

indeed.. if only we could let go enough

5 min – in principle if i could get these minds able to interact in way that doesn’t collapse.. ie: collective intelligence not vastly lost

let go of intelligence ness.. that’s killing us

6 min – computationally we boot load a little.. hopefully enough so actualized capacity reaching the problem domain in the time we have

7 min – design constraints.. can’t require too much change in psycho/spiritual/cog capacity of humans.. can expect and should require skin in the game.. ie: commit to being transformed.. but can’t have expectations that individual capacity will go from 2 to 9.. meaning.. tech can’t require people to do something they can’t do.. has to be.. people as they are

8 min – large chunk of population can perceive it and be transformed by it

john: your framing of problem was (spot on).. i’m teaching online .. basic mindfulness instruction.. and ecology of practices

red flag if we think we have to train.. ie: how can that then be for everyone from the get go

11 min – as you were speaking.. thinking .. yeah.. that’s how to be.. but also.. so ahead of me.. i couldn’t do it.. glad someone who knows how to do it .. is doing it


12 min – john: lists a dozen people.. (where it’s coming from)

let go guys.. listen deeper

so annoying

13 min – should look like formation of ice on surface of pond.. ie: some forming that we don’t know about.. then talked about meeting jim.. and finding working on same thing.. the invisible conspiracy.. both working on same thing.. w/o knowing each other.. makes it even more powerful conspiracy.. i didn’t know i was collab ing with you.. on what right ness looks/feels like

yeah.. i think we can do it more in sync.. than that (ice on pond) .. simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..

again.. i think you/we are missing the potential of exponentiation..

15 min – only subset of population able to participate.. right way to respond to that is to *look at it as a problem to be solving.. some could /should participate.. those not yet able.. we need to look at zone of adj possible.. and who could be brought in most easily

maybe my mood today.. but dang.. i though you just said had to be for all..

*let’s do that first.. so we don’t have to train.. talk.. so much

*ie tech as it could be.. but you can’t hear me

18 min – one thing we have to do is move people from contexts they can’t participate into spaces they can.. but only so much we can help.. i’ve experienced large amount of people who if given the space to be able to participate would make commitment to do so then would go thru tech

dang.. all i hear is screaming: i don’t want to lose control

ie: we can help (how do you know who needs help more than you); space to participate (participate in what.. who’s deciding); make commitment (to what..? huge red flag)

21 min – john: that’s what church would do.. connection to religion that doesn’t have a religion.. how do we get something that can transform the way we think of ed and the way we think of enculturation and sew those back together again

red flag: Ed ness

listen deeper .. deep guys..

wow.. just as i’m typing that:

22 min – john: we need something deeper


yeah.. i was just seeing a 9 dimensional hyper object


23 min – to make it simple.. human beings have a whole set of needs.. and we need to figure out a way to meet those needs that is sustainable in the context of nature and human relationships..t

deeper problem.. let’s figure out the essence (rather than set of assumed needs) of us first .. (ie: basic needs) otherwise.. spinning wheels.. and to your earlier point.. won’t be focused enough to make it simple enough for everyone .. today

ie: 2 convers as infra

24 min – the ways we go about satisfying our needs as humans is the subject of civium

then goodness.. take the time first to figure out deeper needs

to put it more practically.. the subject of civium.. how to we live our bodied daily lives.. how do we get food, how do we put a roof over our heads.. having our vocation of giving our gifts back into the world.. how do we raise our kids.. how do we have friends.. all this stuff of human ing

this is exactly where we’ve blown it.. forever.. those aren’t our basic/essence needs..

and if we focus on filling the deeper needs .. and trust that.. then those 8b people will surprise the socks off you by taking care of all the other things we keep calling basic needs.. and it will happen so fast .. we won’t even think calling it an exponential spread is enough.. it’d be a leap

what we need is a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity ..  simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..

and then trust that dance

24 min – starts at very theoretic.. (18 min video above) .. ontological design is as much a part of the problem.. so need to redo that at bottom level.. *that’s been done.. so now how to substantiate that.. ie: how does everyone have food, forks, et al.. individual and global.. regenerative with nature

*not deep enough.. back up

26 min – john: i would bring in the city.. as invention still using.. the kernel grammar of civilization.. city gets a non linear increase of innovation.. but price we pay is mental ill health.. pollution.. from concentrating people.. so we’re caught.. so you’re saying.. we don’t have to have city as the kernel.. if we can get this tech and psycho tech coordinated we could ramp up the meeting of minds .. and all creativity.. but on ground.. people living in dunbar ness.. conducive to health.. t

let’s try 2 convers as infra

ie: cure ios city

30 min – i want to put a salve on.. if people listening have a demoralization of this.. if one endeavors to put own mind into solving what you just laid out.. likely to realize you can’t do it.. defense mech is to then shut down.. and live with the dopamine

31 min – i would suggest.. trying to own what others do.. will fail.. but i can listen to it and notice.. ie: that’s being done well.. you can tell diff between something being done well and something not being done well.. notice if doing it w elegance and artistry

according to who..? what’s well..

32 min – not trying to solve it all at once.. but make steps.. it’s going to take generations.. before this thing is rendered in fruition.. our job is just to put a few bricks in place


esp now during a rare global pause..

missing it

not to mention – comment of privilege – ie: not urgent

has to be urgent.. . for (blank)’s sake

35 min – john: on sexuality needing physical proximity.. city gives us access to diversity.. to meet someone.. with this global piece.. might meet someone in china..

36 min – mate selection.. that’s pretty close to the whole point

wow.. i hope i’m misunderstanding a ton of this

design instruction must lead to a felt upgradiant in pair bonding relationality and an ongoing upgrade stronger than any other possible choice.. can i design the thing at an abstract level..

maté basic needs

38 min – poor job at having meaningful relationships.. esp leading to pair bonding that lead to children..  otherwise.. no more people

maté basic needs

39 min – so much more out there about raising children.. that’s the ground zero.. so what does that sort of thing look like – possibility of engaging w everyone on planet

vinay on child rights ness

john: pandemic is not a singular event.. advantage of civium is a design defense against pandemic

not deep enough for that.. dang

41 min – if look at lit on pair bonding.. long term tend to be in zone of close culture.. the complexity of this is loading rapidly

43 min – big piece of the meaning crisis is precisely that.. people thrown out of a cultural context that made their life hell.. into having to figure out for themselves.. which we can’t do.. human beings are no way capable of figuring out for ourselves

wow.. that keeps your voice alive.. no?

i wish we could talk.. i hope that doesn’t mean what it sounds like to me just now

so we do a really shitty job of it.. we have the advantage.. that we’re no longer constrained.. but also liberated from constraints.. and i take responsibility for something i can’t take responsibility for

have you read bruce alexander..?

you’re describing what he countered with rat park et al.. you’re describing tragedy of the non common

have you read about the real lord of the flies..? not that that would be enough.. but..

43 min – i grew up in suburbs.. ie: how do you do halloween.. reaching capacity of how to hold things together

44 min – if you had 150 000 potential people.. boundary condition of number of people potential mates.. et al.. if you get outside of boundary.. anything more is a wast

wow.. what a distraction.. you’re modeling with your thinking what you’re talking about

46 min – want people you’re interacting with to be healthy, intelligence, wholesome.. super saturated w possibility

best way to be most saturated w possibility

listen to and facil us from the data of 8b daily curiosities  ie: cure ios city

mission of teenagers to figure this out.. who you are and how you may become in effective relationship w others.. rather than algebra.. then choice which civium to bring that young adulthood into

48 min – see what i did.. had to bring in a couple more elements.. like ed.. if people healthy .. too busy to worry about charismatic leader


5 min video – The Civium Project 03: Civium Economics

financial concept.. notion is.. imagine land w hills/valleys.. rain coming down evenly.. call that value.. gathers in valleys.. ponds.. rivers.. distribution of value in econ.. owners of real estate get more than share.. in virtual.. value as os.. in beginning search.. google.. then platform.. twitter.. where it collects.. virtual real estate

3 min – basic rule.. principle of design.. there should be a symmetry rule..  so well oriented in effort = value..

notice that because of topography.. owning land.. more than x.. disproportionately cause people to seek owning land

in civium.. rule: these 2 objects must be held in commons.. distributed back out to each value creator

who’s deciding who’s a creator and who’s not..?

tragedy of the non common

so practically.. if a member.. citizen of civium will have a pro rata (?) share in all land/tech-platforms.. returned to you on a continuous basis.. redistributed to all who are members

tragedy of the non common

let go of the strings.. or the dance won’t dance

5 min – spoiler alert.. this will look a lot like ubi as you go forward

rather.. try/code money (any form of measuring/accounting) as the planned obsolescence w/ubi as temp placebo.. needs met w/o money..people forget about measuring or you/we’ll keep bumping up against the tragedy


9 min video – The Civium Project 04: Operating Methodology

Civium 4. The Operating Methodology
Designing for Emergence
A Startup mindset
Export models

Designing for emergence. Startup cities and mars colonies. Export and GDP.

Questions? Lets start some Q&A. What are the most relevant things to focus on right now? What are the questions that need to be addressed now?

what should/could we org around.. so that 8b people would resonate/access from the get go.. ie: what is the essence of being human

3 things under operating methodology.. how to happen: 1\ design for emergence 2\ nature of team.. who  3\ how enter into relationship w rest of world

1\ must be auto poetic.. cannot now hope to design it.. has to be *intrinsically complex..  ie: developing embryo.. need egg and sperm.. do we have the right dna.. deep code.. do we really understand necessary conditions to begin the process to enable this thing to go forward..t

am thinking that’s exactly what is missing.. and what we need first.. otherwise spinning wheels

ie: maté basic needs

2\ the womb.. i think this is largely going to be the people that come in the capacity/resources/history they bring and the space they establish in and among selves and in larger world.. can they weather all the failings.. they also are the context

3\ the relationship w outside world..

so the initial who and the larger world.. people forming civium beginnings will have to come in extremely mindful.. intention is to create something.. that effectively everyone on planet has chosen to participate in..

you’re talking short ness here (deep, simple, open enough.. for 8b people to resonate w today)

with the essence to simultaneously living.. humaning together and how to be furthered maximally.. so think of it a little like a mars expedition.. the start up of node/noom (?) zero is going to come w a lot of mojo and a lot of *commitment to build something that is hard to build.. w a lot of novelty/exploration in what can/can’t be done

we have the means to go/start deeper than that ie: we have the means  a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity ..  simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..

*red flag

requirement of civium having relationship w rest of world.. and perhaps decades to pull resources from outside of world into the civium.. might call that a balance of trade.. ie: import cars for food.. certainly civium is going to have to have something in a direction of a balance of trade

red flag.. any form of measuring/accounting

civium should be most generative location.. place where synergy value of creative collab is at a high water mark,.. places like ie: google.. places that out compete everywhere else..  cutting edge new techs.. that kind of thing should be the bread and butter.. what civium does better than anyone else.. we’re not talking about an ecovillage that tries to trade baskets or artichokes.. quit the opposite.. civium as trying to trade the most valuable things.. and out compete the rest of the world in providing those most valuable things.. by its very nature/design

wish you could hear deeper..

most valuable things (maté basic needs).. can’t be traded (graeber values law)

what the world needs most: the energy of 8b alive people


jordan fb share:

This one will be important for the next two in the Civium series.

15 min video – The Adjacent Possible and TOK (theory of knowledge) – deep code – experiment : episode 30 – []

math math math –

5 min – possibility space you can engage in now is hyperfast.. and larger than our capacity to discern which relationships to actually engage in..t

perhaps that’s the wrong take/angle for human being ..  perhaps we need to let go of limiting ourselves to some finite set (no matter how large) of choices/possibilities.. let go.. and let the limit approach/reach infinity ie: curiosity over decision making..beyond finite set of choices

imagine if we just focused on listening to the itch-in-8b-souls.. first thing.. everyday.. and used that data to augment our interconnectedness.. we might just get to a more antifragile, healthy, thriving world.. the ecosystem we keep longing for..

what the world needs most is the energy of 8b alive people

so in the possibility space .. there’s a mech to select which of those possibilities to actually invest time/energy into..t

wasting both time/energy doing that

then.. there’s a degree to which the actual consequences of those relationships has a generative impact – the red sphere.. my capacity to select..t

if you want legit generative – let go of finite set of choices.. takes out all the busy work/math

ie: your explanation here of generative impact is to increase capacity to select.. which is (could be) irrelevant/distraction/time-energy-suck/oppressive to human beings’ fittingness

6 min – so i’ve got 1\ the possibility space  2\ the mech by which i select  3\ the actual generative consequences – consequence capture..t

try: 1\ curiosity (itch in the soul) 2\ self-talk as data  3\ energy of 8b alive people

john stewart talking about consequence capture

7 min – if look in realm of consequence capture.. i have a portal pathway.. portal pathway is super important here

let go man

math math math

literacy and numeracy both elements of colonialism/control/enclosure.. we need to calculate differently and stop measuring things

8 min – dna rna – what’s probability i’ll arrive at identical copy ..  0.. then we have another way of searching the cominaborials – cellular replication – ability to copy that exact set into new cell with probability of near one.. almost perfectly.. almost all the time

cancer man.. rna ness.. whales in sea world

10 min – now tok – unlock super cool combo that has radical shift in red sphere.. large space – adj possible

yeah.. we’re missing the potential of human beings.. by trying to control the beautiful math (that can’t be controlled)

13 min – adj possible.. white/red sphere.. portal pathways.. where you can unlock an entirely new you.. behavior/culture space.. start coordinating social groups.. if hit just right.. gives rise to whole new thing.. and that by the way .. is game b.. t


not new.. just more embedded in busy/oppressive work/math