nika on anarchism

nika dubrovsky on anarch\ism

Anarchism – From Proudhon to Rojava — with Robert Nemeth and Nika Dubrovsky – Ideas Shape the World – dec 2022 – []:

In this fifth salon of the Ideas Shape the World – An Introduction to Social Movements series, hosted by Robert Nemeth, we discuss anarchism and how it appears in today’s world and influences it.

Anarchism developed as a distinctive strain within radical and revolutionary thought in the mid-19th century. Nowadays, some media quickly labels public protests as anarchists whenever they ignite violent behavior. But they are usually wrong. There is a strong consensus that anarchism cannot be reduced to a single set of principles, conceptual arrangements, or theoretical positions that might be applied in practice, analysis, or critique. But then, what is it about?

via this tweet []:

@nikadubrovsky on anarchism – it’s past and present (and future) []

notes/quotes from 95 min video:

robert nemeth @nrobert – budapest: nika grew up in unofficial culturalism of squats

1 min – nika: just want to say.. in anarchism there are no experts..t so i invited some of my anarchist friends

intellect ness et al

to me that’s why ai as artificial intelligence is a cancerous distraction.. need it to be about augmenting interconnectedness.. about nonjudgmental expo labeling..

3 min – jamie: anarchism (via david) as our natural default system

5 min – clive russell.. met jamie via extinsion rebellion then met david and nika later.. and we all continue to work and collab

7 min – steven bachelor.. i classify as academic.. grew up in greater la.. 1st experience in direct action as 6th grader in regard to turning park into skate park.. then bull dozed down.. then on museum of care ness.. group of people who share similar commitment to non hierarchical ways of living as if we’re already free

museum of care..

as if already free ness.. and need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs

10 min – simona: intros self

20 min – nika: anarchism is the way you relate to people.. relationships

26 min – jamie kelsey @JamieKelseyFry (citizen assemblies) can’t deal w any of the crises unless deal w crisis in governance itself.. how humanity decides.. our decision making processes are embarrassing and ancient.. t

actually today.. need to let go of decision making .. it is unmooring us

need to try curiosity over decision making

27 min – jamie: arguabley david invented this whole thing.. we are the 99%.. simple stuff.. so we use participatory democracy assemblies.. so no voices dominate.. no leaders.. all voices heard equally.. people who feel vulnerable feel comfortable to speak..

if only.. public consensus always oppresses someone(s)

28 min – jamie: chosen thru sortition.. random lottery style.. snapshot of society.. so world’s first ever global citizen’s assembly.. we did in 2021.. an accurate snapshot of humanity.. (asking strangers to join.. 600 to 100)

oi.. sorry.. but again.. public consensus always oppresses someone(s)

we have means to go deeper.. ie: infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness

need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs

imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

32 min – jamie: the fact is.. we heard/felt what the human family had to say.. t

oh my.. if only.. but what you heard was whalespeak.. 1\ didn’t really hear every voice.. and even if you could/did.. 2\ we all need detox first

jamie: the default mode for humanity is love, compassion, willingness to coop.. and a desire for a sustainable future for our children.. every single fam.. that was their default mode

33 min – jamie: we’re going to take it into civil disobedience next year…

35 min – jamie: (asked how to prevent groups dominating) 90% of models happening around world are not independent.. pull back curtain and run by ie: lefties, greenies.. has to be purer.. has to be independent.. the movement we are pioneering is all about being independent..people i work with are nerdy.. obsessed with keeping it pure

37 min – charlie gibbons: bringing it back to topic.. anarchism.. how do these assemblies fit into that rubric.. in what sense is it voluntary to be governed by these global assemblies.. i don’t recall signing up to be governed by them

38 min – charlie: what we are doing is we are creating our own space.. establishing *completely new power structures.. independent of the established power structures.. and pushing for **civil disobedience and cultural disruptions.. that’s where we’re at in the moment.. so in other words.. we have no power in the eyes of existing power structures.. so we have to ***force that.. so you have this triangle which is (top) civil disobedience (side) cultural wave and (side) citizens assemblies.. the 3 c’s this all has to work.. because we’re not naive.. ****we are creating an alt system that makes the first system obsolete as bucky said

*to me.. not new if still about power.. and especially not new if hung up on **cancerous distractions and all the ***red flags

****actually.. still perpetuates first/existing system.. any form of m\a\p

39 min – nika: interesting to find out the plan.. so *i also don’t want to be governed by the citizens assembly that i didn’t create myself.. t i should see what kind of assembly is this where i’m living.. but **the idea is we have to try to create our local structures and then make a federation with one another.. there is no one global assembly that could then rule everyone.. t but how i understand it.. ideal situation.. it’s a ***variety of issues that could be governed on diff levels by diff groups.. and if i come back to documenta.. how they did it.. it was a group of curators who’s running everything but then they delegated to many many other alt groups who could ****invite.. come and leave in documenta.. and each in this group would *****decide for self what going to do.. so it has some kind of flaws/problems.. but as jamie said.. it’s ******so much better than any other form of decision making or implementing power than we have now.. that i think every conscious person will choose that..

whew .. yay nika.. worth whole 95 min here.. so much good (and not so good to me)..

*huge.. huge.. any form of people telling other people what to do

**but today we have the means (nonjudgmental expo labeling) for infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness.. and we’re missing it..

***what we need (in our collective imagination.. and to me what we already have/crave in each/every soul) is no issues/governing ness.. we need to try curiosity over decision making in order for global detox/re\set

****rather.. need to let go of invited vs invented ness.. because..

*****decision making is unmooring us

******every whale would choose that.. because we’re so programmed to assume decisions over some finite set of choices (spinach or rock ness) is our best option (note.. to me.. any form of decision-making/democratic admin is an option.. not a legit alt)

need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs

imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

40 min – charlie gibbons: so suppose you were able to arrest power from existing structure.. so my neighborhood in san fran gets full autonomy.. can do whatever they want.. and this org forms.. w idea that i could say.. if my neighbors want to sign up for that it’s fine.. but for this house.. not going to be governed by that.. so would the solution for me to be.. then if don’t want to be part of this community.. then to leave community.. move out

41 min – clive: *a weirder thing to ask yourself is why haven’t you got a choice of a different community because at the moment we only have one choice.. t so **if you had a choice to actually go to a diff community that was operating really well.. you could then make that choice.. t but at moment told we only have one choice.. such a ridiculous concept.. surely we need to be constantly looking to evolve and get better.. but our society hasn’t moved on last 300 yrs.. so should be asking.. why hasn’t this happened.. and why are we living in society where we can make choices which society we live in

to me.. *even weirder thing is that we think life is about choices.. so engrained in us we can’t imagine a nother way

to me.. **that’s a cancerous distraction (spending our days figuring out which community to choose et al).. that is keeping us from us.. keeping us from the dance.. because we have no idea what legit free people are like.. ie: what if we’re made for curiosity over decision making et al

42 min – nika: i think you’re asking quite practical question.. living in building.. many buildings in ny already have this kind of assembly.. ie: if don’t take out trash kicked out.. already anarchistic in a way.. otherwise wouldn’t be able to live w people.. but we’re talking about more global issues.. ie: assembly on climate change

43 min – jamie: like i say charlie.. this is only that far off the ground.. so there’s all these kinds of issues being addressed.. but already feels a lot better than what we’ve got.. and as clive said.. crazy that we don’t even challenge the govt systems that often and think they might be better.. the atomization of our lives and polarization of society is crushing our souls.. but a story that addresses that.. that polarization gets really addressed in citizen assemblies.. ie: one on same sex marriage in ireland.. 12 weekends.. old homophob w arm around young kid.. grandson i never had.. when in beginning wanted to kill him.. i spent whole life filled w hate/fear because of something that happened to me when i was a kid.. so one of unexpected effects.. end of polarization.. this goes on and on and on.. *the end of polarization.. it happens very quickly

gabor on childhood trauma et al

so again.. better.. but not near what we’re capable of.. ie: humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity ..  simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync.. aka: we need a means for everyone to detox in sync.. you’re talking about one incident and after 12 weeks.. which is great.. for some.. and after a long time.. but today we have means for every single person to experience legit freedom.. legit interconnectedness.. every single day..

*well yeah.. it could indeed.. and/but we’re missing it

48 min – robert: so in budapest.. have same but started by municipality so they could govern assemblies.. so do these also fit in this category

jamie: yeah they’re famous.. one of first ie’s of govt embedding these processes

yeah.. fit in category.. because all haven’t let go of any form of m\a\p.. so really same song.. same cancerous distraction song

jamie: and actually those assemblies are given the.. if assembly reaches *80% agreement.. then govt will implement what they have agreed on.. so in other words.. ones you’re talking about robert.. they are one of first ie’s of this becoming part of established power structures.. but the **power structures giving power to them.. that’s actually one of the ones that’s referenced a great deal.. the ie you’re giving is one of the new really hopeful ie’s .. first stages.. ***i can see this as being a profoundly important tool in humanity getting out of.. what i call the chapter of shame/embarrassment

*oi.. not good enough.. (because we now have means for better/deeper.. for legit diff.. if we could only let go enough to see)

public consensus always oppresses someone(s)

**because still cancerous distraction that will perpetuate myth of tragedy and lord.. that will perpetuate sea world.. aka: same song

***oh my.. not getting out.. just perhaps diff color.. but same song.. oi

49 min – christina waggaman: i think of anarchists of building something outside mainstream in order to build something better.. am wondering.. can anarchism.. building alt system to influence mainstream system.. can that work alongside people who are trying to reform from inside

to me.. no.. that’s the part\ial ness we keep trying.. to me.. the legit alt we need.. will be an instantaneous leap of all of us sans any form of m\a\p (otherwise we’ll never get in sync) .. so to me.. the trying to reform from inside.. is perhaps an ‘in the meantime‘ thing.. but i don’t see it as helping.. because to me.. any form of m\a\p.. would perpetuate/keep the cancer.. the break needs to be clean – for (blank)’s sake

51 min – steve: wise and astute point.. one of problems w anarchist thought.. because ethics of practice rather than mode of anal.. it tends to become ways of behaving/acting which means in terms of branding.. it’s difficult.. because it means the actions that so called anarchists.. might have trouble with that term.. because it is a category a delimiting .. *so if start from premise that there’s entropy.. action happening everywhere.. then really what culture is is at root a refusal.. so if practicing ethics of practice that has refusals as guiding light.. putting into practice golden rule.. but we tend not to think of the golden rule as a refusal.. a refusal to treat you as anything as a friend or non stranger doesn’t mean there isn’t hierarchy.. but you’re approaching people first w assumption of a shared humanity.. so built on a premise of refusal.. which then means.. as an intellectual traditions.. it doesn’t get codified in particular modes of anal – leninism/marxism.. it instead gets enshrined as an antithetical tradition to the traditions of violence that surround us.. **so it absolutely has to begin from either building alt structures outside the structure or alt structures w/in the structure but recognizing that the structure itself is a corpse.. and you’re building a fresh start from w/in the shell of the whole.. and it’s then difficult to id because what will then happen is people will sometimes get to the point where.. if building w/in shell of old.. you’re a sell out.. so build in or out?.. i think it’s a both-and.. then when those who refuse to do both-and thinking.. if followed by violence then know you’re no longer dealing w an anarchist

*to me.. that wouldn’t be the entropy ness we need.. it’s like we’re calling it entropy but still holding onto some order.. ie: the order of categorizing what to refuse.. et al

**yeah.. but still see refusal ness as cancerous distraction.. because means taking time/energy to acknowledge existing structure.. when we just need to let go of it.. and all its influences

54 min – charlie: when i hear anarchism is about voluntary associations.. that strikes me a way to make a much more atomistic society than we have now.. little enclaves of 50 people who want to follow same norms/rules.. even if creates tighter bonds.. more atomized

we have a hard time with the math here.. we have been programmed to not let go of permanence.. ie: in infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness.. nothing is permanent.. it’s a dance.. not a program.. not step rules.. nothing you can predict or plan out.. et al

55 min – jamie: i think thing you need to make a point here.. is you don’t choose these groups.. it’s sortition.. so by defn groups not all of same type of person .. literally a snap shot.. participated democracy is self selected.. but what i’m talking about is sortition chosen deliberate democracy.. not self chosen.. so a snap shot of everybody.. dually divided into race/gender/race/ed.. then goes into %s of each opinion..

oi.. imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

57 min – charlie: maybe reason we’re talking past each other here.. that to me does not sound like anarchy.. to me.. an anarchistic system is where i volunteer to join a particular group as opposed to what you’re describing as way to create a body that reps everyone or a particular pop

not anarchism.. at least not how we get 8b legit free people.. voluntary compliance isn’t cutting it deep enough

58 min – jamie: you’re right.. this is not anarchism.. not willingly self selected at all

nika: but also.. jamie was saying .. for diff matters have diff systems.. but what you’re asking about w limitation.. i don’t think you’re right.. so i will disagree w you.. when have central govt.. this is atomization.. but when have neighbors .. affinity group.. who then creates org w other affinity group.. that’s much more human and less atomized society.. have time to nurture relationships.. know neighbors/people and try to deal with them somehow.. so centralized system is only breaking down this relationships.. but they exist anyhow because we are social creatures

1:00 – simona: back to problem w categorization.. 1\ *allow you to recognize comrades.. those you wish to be together.. helpful to find people.. t from this pov.. i have an anarchist detector.. when i like somebody.. it’s usually a deeply anarchist person.. 2\ but there’s a **deep problem with this categorization.. it creates an inside and an outside.. any defn is in a way violence.. that’s why i worry of defining myself in any way.. because as soon as you define.. you create border..t you join a particular group.. it is a setting apart that is dangerous for me.. ***i want an ethics/politics that can be for everyone potentially.. to be for everyone also means no blame for those not joining.. this is a dynamic i see in my bolognian group.. that is potentially dangerous.. an idea that this is a group.. this is a ***very welcoming/nonhierarchical group .. nevertheless there is an idea of blaming those outside.. this is in my opinion dangerous.. i prefer something that can be shared w/everybody.. and i’m worry of potential ****anytime you create defn/id you create a border and you create a sort of violence and a hierarchy.. even if you are not aware of it

*today we have a means to do this.. that doesn’t define/borderize any thing/body.. ie: we need ai/tech as nonjudgmental expo labeling

**marsh label law.. siddiqi border law.. naming the colour ness et al

***yes.. with any form of m\a\p.. so to me.. we need ai/tech as nonjudgmental expo labeling.. in order to detox us from that trend we’ve engrained from living in sea world

****any form of m\a\p

1:04 – robert: christian and bryan are having fascinating convo in chat on daoism/buddhism

christian: yeah.. don’t want to speak as i have authority but.. i’ve practiced form of buddhism.. one aspect of practice is breaking down attachment to concrete views on self/world.. doesn’t mean reject everything.. just means you don’t cling too tightly.. i’m very drawn to dialectical ways of thinking (ie: can’t say i can’t talk to you because you’re this and i’m that) doesn’t mean every side is equally right/truth.. but piece of truth for those people.. *most people aren’t sociopaths.. philosophies that seem really alien to me.. there might be something in that that’s resonating.. so big part of my practice is breaking down my own biases.. realizing i can id w things.. but over id-ing can create suffering because **i can’t hear other people’s piece of the truth

*well.. none of us are.. if we could get out of sea world.. the more seeming sociopaths.. are just more crazywise et al.. more khan filling the gaps law ness et al..

**need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature ie: tech as it could be

1:06 – bryan: yeah my practice is more (names another type of buddhism).. maybe more strict.. to me buddhism and anarchism seem to be about practice.. concepts can help you get there but they aren’t the thing.. i feel very anti authoritarian.. ie: unschooled because couldn’t do kindergarten.. that anti authoritarianism makes me resist groups/labels.. but very curious if anarchism is about action.. *what are the specific actions and how do you find the others.. t

*imagine if we listened (as our action) to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (to find the others.. that day)

tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling

1:09 – nika: i think there is no specific action.. because then it’s described as group or political action/movement .. and it’s none of those.. you just do what you do when you are in this way.. and that’s it.. that’s direct action.. i’d like to ask clive who is behind design of extinction rebellion (shows his art in her apt).. he described aesthetic as way to build relationship in using posters..

apt art et al

1:11 – clive: again.. wouldn’t describe myself as anarchist.. would describe self as a designer.. *how little can you do to allow people to do a lot.. ie: create workshops to show people how to make stuff together.. **because then begin to talk with one another.. doing things w hands.. suddenly mouth begins to work.. i’m a participant in life.. everyone can be a designer.. quit going into big factories.. make things yourself

*ie: a nother way book

**rheingold (mom) art law et al

1:14 – nika: but success of extinction rebellion in that posters now all over world.. clive you’re really modest

clive: we didn’t do it.. this is the point.. people say if it wasn’t me it would be someone else.. just needs people to rethink how they approach things.. chucking the manual out.. nothing clever.. just needs to be done.. try and make change.. seems simple to me

1:15 – robert: steve you write in the chat about anarchism more about what you refuse to do than what you do.. could you elab on this a bit more

1:16 – steve: oh yeah.. if start w premise that born into society against our will.. i haven’t consented to anything except i refuse to kill myself in this moment.. because i do.. i’m now alive and i have choices.. those choices aren’t necessarily ones i’ve consented to.. so neg feedback loop unless we start w premise we’re already free and can live way we want we can’t really live way we want.. so best way i can define my life politically form a view point of political agency.. is by deciding what capitulizations to authoritarianism/capitalism/system-of-authority/structure-of-violence that i do not consent to.. how can i org my life so i refuse at every step to capitulate to that system.. 1\ extreme would be i kill myself.. because i absolutely refuse to live in suffering that is this world.. 2\ other extreme.. life as game.. so think at every moment .. how can i rig game in my favor.. w/o an ethics/morality that’s the system we live in.. i want to succeed on my own terms.. but my terms are not the terms of the world/authority.. yet.. i live in a world where i’m benefitting from that authority as a middle aged white dude.. so i have great privilege.. and so the privilege i have is to refuse to reproduce systems of terror that do not have my consent.. and yet i behave each day in reproducing that system.. first step is making myself aware of where those steps are.. so i have designed my life in ways sometimes where i’m not deliberately designing it.. but *i try to design in ways where i am not reproducing structures of violence that i don’t support.. i drive a car have a bank account.. have kids.. there are certain capitulations i don’t like making.. so always looking for things i can eliminate.. we live in a moral system.. so i am making moral transgressions against my value system at every moment.. try to make myself as painfully aware in a way i’m not falling into traps of shame/guilt.. but also not falling into fallacies of materialism that operate/guide many people.. ie: motivated by money for sake of money.. knowing any time you calc.. bring in numbers.. reducing things to false categories

*ok.. to me.. again.. that is perhaps a good ‘in the mean time’ philosophy/way

1:21 – nika: ie of direct action.. friends from temp auto zone (taz) in france.. amazing ie of how people can live.. how things could look.. i can count many many places like that in the world

1:23 – christian: i’m particularly interested in this off shoot of extinction rebellion and global assemblies.. mutual aid tied into all this? walls breaking down.. has their been any kind of mutual aid.. i’ve always found mutual aid as being most beautiful part of anarchism

1:24 – jamie: yeah.. just beginnings.. but all have continued as a group.. participants develop own networks as a result naturally.. et al.. one guy said.. i had to go get therapy.. we assume everybody knows how f-ed we are.. and they don’t.. so one of areas important.. is how you hold people who go thru these experiences afterwards.. psychologically.. area to be focussed on.. in us one called ‘life for us’

that’s warning ness and costello screen\service law.. et al.. for (blank)’s sake

1:27 – dan: could anybody talk about learnings from rojava.. for possibilities of anarchist societies

1:28 – nika: i have never been in rojava.. i really wanted to go w david.. but i have friends.. yeah.. looks like rojava is for many years now.. 9-10 .. really practicing/showing how it’s working on the ground.. all kinds of diff people all living together.. most horrible condition possible.. run by grassroots/feminism.. like paris commune but much bigger scale and much longer

rojava’s third way..

1:30 – dan: yeah.. in syrian revolution can find lots of ie’s of mutual aid.. just people org-ing for selves..

1:32 – jamie: david wrote article about it.. soldiers so sincere in asking him to get this info into rest of world ‘we’re so sorry for you (women)’ was so important for them that women outside rojava hear this