mark pesce

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September 1980, Pesce attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), for a Bachelor of Science degree, but left in June 1982 to pursue opportunities in the newly emerging high-technology industry. He worked as an Engineer for the next few years, developing prototype firmware and software for SecurID cards. In 1988, Pesce joined Shiva Corporation, which pioneered and popularized dial-up networking. Pesce’s role in the company was to develop user interfaces, and his research in this area would lead him deeper into the questions posed by virtual reality. The company would grow from $1.5 million in sales in 1988, to $40 million when Pesce departed in early 1993……

so much there – just go swim.

16 years ago, hardly anyone was connected; 16 years from now, being connected will be synonymous with being human. That’s not a prediction – that’s where we are.         Mark Pesce, May 26, 2011


Keynote for Methodist Ladies’ College, Melbourne, Victoria, 27 January 2015:


feb 26 2015 speaking at hypercivility – civic hall nyc

[Warning: Some of the images in Pesce’s talk are from the Rwandan genocide and may be disturbing.]

we can’t see our way out.. what we’ve got.. a planet spanning connectivity only to find that it’s ruling (or ruining) us

rwanda was dead – 1994 – 2/3 displaced – took time to recover from death – 2003 – article 54 – the never again article – no more discrimination

we are rwandans..  no more hutu no more tutsi

nationality: human


begging for Neil ness. but also ringing of ni ness. kind of. i don’t know.


a mess of following him – ness – below


sunday, february 20, 2011

mark pesce

currently reading and absorbing this and this.


sunday, march 13, 2011

mark pesce

on paperworks – padworks
spot on – but do we need the national curriculum?
isn’t that a compromise as well?isn’t this unleashing about curiosity, and the natural process of learning. why impose content strands?..
while the nat curriculum may be better.. it’s not the best is it?
Shirky’s Cognitive Surplus – all over but esp p. 190 on the printing press:
because each reader had access to more books, intellectual diversity not uniformity was the result. this increase in diversity of sources corroded faith in older institutions. (standards?..)and on: make war, then love –
It’s as though we went as far as we could, in our own heads, then leapt outside of them, into cities, and left our heads behind.       -3 paragraphs up from the you think our heads, or enough of our heads, or enough of our heads and others’ heads with the use of the web, have caught up enough that now we can make the cities us?
cognitive surplus – ness.seems you think so here:

we stare down into our screens, and find within them a connection we had almost forgotten.  It touches something so ancient – and so long ignored – that the mobile now contends with the real world as the defining axis of social orientation.  
People are often too busy responding to messages to focus on those in their immediate presence.  It seems ridiculous, thoughtless and pointless, butthe device has opened a passage which allows us to retrieve this oldest part of ourselves, and we’re reluctant to let that go. 
so – shouldn’t we be more about using those devices for conversations..(than standards) deep tacit knowledge conversations. that lead to trust based relationships, that lead to bringing people together.
These kinds of things have been possible before, but the National Curriculum gives us the reason to do it. 
i think the reason to do it is because each of us has curiosities deep within.. the nat curric is if we didn’t have access to these connections.
Shirky again:
on new networks.. we thought – i’ll use it to help me find info, etc.. but what we actually did was communicate and share.
our desire to communicate with one another has turned out to be one of the most stable features of the current environment.
the answers are more in the opportunities (creating serendipity) for each other by the culture of the groups we your plexus what we’re looking for? is someone in ed testing it out, can we test it out? do you have yet a space on plexus where you can have a coffeehouse convo? jetsons quality?

i can’t seem to read your posts fast enough.


thursday, march 17, 2011

mark pesce

what ever happened to the book:hypertexts capability of nonlinearity
a link is pregnant with meaning, to pass one by means you’re occurring an opportunity cost
attention has been monetized, so links are kept to a minimum
even in Kelly’s case, where money means nothing, links are missing
on the other hand, consider an article in wikipedia
many do point back, but plenty that face out
this is a doc that has embraced the nature of the medium
wikipedia does not monetize attention
it’s the pure expression of the tension between the momentum of the text of the centrifugal force of the hypertextthe newspaper has been shreaded, from the nature of hypertexttl;dr = too long, didn’t readattention spans are not shortening, kids will still read mega pageswe’ve entered an era of hyper competitive developmentin truth, we do more reading today than we did 10 years ago.the shorter the text, the less invested you are in it
discriminate between electronic book and publishing in light
ebook – it’s not a one for one translationif we want to avoid turning living typeset texts into dead text in light, we would end up with less than what we had before
purposefully stripped of their utility to be placed in a new mediumhypertext is intrinsically alluringwhat is the bene of the ebook? is it ubiquity? mobility? – those are nice features, but not in themselves overwhelmingly alluringan ebook offers a qualitatively different experience in the text (ie: britanica vs wikipedia)
does the electronic book differ from the hyper docs?

we won’t know what the electronic book looks like until we’ve had time to play with it
we come to a book with a commitment – we want to finish it, but why

it will become a gradient rather than a boundary

as texts become electronic, as the melt together, meaning multiplies exponentially
every sentence and every word in every sentence can send you flying in almost any direction (like ed)
the tension there will just be one text. and there will only be one text. the reading will be exciting, exhilarating, dizzying,
as our texts become one.. as they become one hyperconnected mass of human connection,  it will become synonymous with culture…all the texts strung together.. and that’s what happened to the book


saturday, march 26, 2011

mark pesce

sharing talk t educators in australia  oct 29sharing things or sharing thoughts
we teach kids how to share things, we never have to teach them how to share their thoughts [even tacit?]1999 – shawn fanning sharing napster to share mp3 files freely, within 3 mos, millions of college students freely trading music, the idea of copyright and music piracy didn’t enter their heads, it was all about sharingwhen you connect people together they will automatically share the things they care aboutfor the first time, we can now share
same way steam engine did to human muscle power 200 yrs agoin 2001 – here comes wikipediaknowledge seems to have an almost gravitational quality, now just under 3 mill articles
wikipedia is only the most successful in producing a collective intelligence
wikipedia leaves us smarter – gives us opportunity to load up on facts, the best possible facts
if we peel off all the tech of wikipedia –
wikipedia is an agreement to share what we know
[yes – so can’t that be our measure.. what have you shared back in wikipedia]
its that agreement that historians will be writing about in 100 yrs time, because that agreement
that agreement is one of the engines that is driving our cultures forward1999 – teacher ratings dot com. like wikipedia it grew slowly, and became
rate my professors, owned by mtv
[perfect model for how we determine who’s together in a room in your school design it]
10 mill readings of 1 mill profs
changes the power balance within the universitysharing has destabilizing all of our institutions
something big, all being driven by our ability to share3 big events that will revolutionize ed in australia in the next decade – a compressed wave of change:
1) australia lives with medium to low broadband speeds, because of metering, since 1990’s
the hidden lesson of the last 15 yrs is that the internet is something that needs to be rationed very carefully because there’s not enough to go around. plans: 100 megabit per second connections to every home, business and school – govern wants this to be unmetered, they want the internet to be freely available
we don’t know what will happen with that. critics say there’s no good reason for it,
but there are schools often block youtube, not because it’s distracting, but because they can’t handle demand for bandwidth
broad band is the oxygen of the 21st century, once we can breath freely new horizons will open up
no predicted napster or youtube or skype, before we had access, those who say it’s not important haven’t watched history
2017 – 100 megabit/second will be medium2) computer to every student in yrs 9-12
radically alters the power balance in the classroom, more students had more facility than their teachers
schools don’t have budget or time for prof develop
students don’t realize power – good or bad
currently, they’re bling, not being used for what they can be

3) the national curriculum     [of course i question this – help me guys – i don’t see it]
math, science and history ready for 2011, the core elements
dr evan arthur, commonwealth dept, he describe the docs as a greenfields, a series of strings that could be handled like strings of a christmas tree.. so every educator in australia working to the same strings.. opportunity to start again, throw out old rule book and start fresh.
national curric with all the above 1&2 could fundamentally alter the future of ed in australia

another path
rather than doing nat curric as a done deal, what if wiser if offer as open invitation, what but not how, teachers are free to pursue their own pedagogical ends. everyone is going to be pulling in the same direction, so makes sense to share that experience  [ok – this is better, but i still see compromise, less buy-in, like finally getting the chance to swim in the ocean but deciding it would be safer if you let your brother do it and tell you about it]
board of, rate, blogs, etc, but if it all happens out there… we would miss out.

teacher preps at beginning of year.. checking into resources for nat curric string that other teachers have shared – ie:, podcasts, lesson plans, etc
that ed needs to create an effective experience for students, then they share what they did back

curriculum becomes a focal point for organization – a point of contact rather than a point of order
[why can’t wikipedia become the focal point? then there’s something for everybody, and if not, they create it]

students can use those strings to contact other students
know where to go for help and advice

doesn’t constitute peeking at the answers.. gives them every advantage of working through the standards  [ugh]

[this is not an ed utopia – because the learner is still not learning per choice.. they are learning per a given set to choose from.. am i missing something?]

i think there is an even better path –   $99 a month – tertiary – could take it down to secondary
not just about ed, but about assessment – always open global market for ed

[so i ask my friends in australia.. what do you think of the national standards in australia
whatedsaid @monk51295 It’s restrictive for a school like mine.  There are things that are good, but it’s very prescriptive.
whatedsaid @monk51295 I don’t like the history section, it’s very content based.
jennyluca @monk51295 @suewaters worried it will become the testing regimen you experience in the US. Has potential if bureaucracy stays out of it.
i just wonder why we think learning has to be predetermined. i’m thinking that compromises so much of the power the web now allows.
it really does seem to me like words published in light.. we’re missing the potential..
i just see whenever we decide on any content, not everyone will agree. nothing is for everyone. that’s how we’ve gotten to too little time to cover everything… everyone keeps adding what they think, or interpreting how they think. so amazing is rare. we just don’t have time. and with a given prescription, the urge to measure is ginormous.
it seems, since we can, the curriculum – or glue – that holds us all together should be –  how to learn, practiced over and over no matter what you are learning – detox. (unless of course you don’t need detox, then you wouldn’t have needed a curriculum, as you are in the zone and pure and still haven’t squelched that natural learning within you)]

random posts on the national curriculum in australia
a nat curric
mary ann’s awesome 6-12 english curriculum via ian
and more from mary ann on standards ASCD

from Mark’s blog – everything old is new again
your brains have limited space to store all those relationships – it’s actually the most difficult thing we do, the most cognitively all-encompassing task.  Forget physics – relationship are harder, and take more brainpower
That is precisely what Facebook gives us.  It makes those implicit connections explicit.  It allows those connections to become conduits for ever-greater-levels of connection.  Once those connections are made, once they become a regular feature of our life, we can grow beyond the natural limit of 150.  That doesn’t mean you can manage any of these relationships well – far from it.  But it does mean that you can keep the channels of communication open.  That’s really what all of these social networks are: turbocharged Rolodexes, which allow you to maintain far more relationships than ever before possible.
Once these relationships are established, something beings to happen quite naturally: people begin to share.

[such good stuff here – read the post for sure]
love this part – rings of kevin kelly’s what tech wants:
You’re going to need good tools to make this ambitious project a reality, and you’re going to need them for two entirely contradictory reasons: first, to be able to listen to everything going on everywhere, and second, because that chaotic din will deafen you.  You need tools to help you find out what’s going on, but, more significantly, you need tools to help you winnow the wheat from the chaff.
and i think this is huge.. it’s all about conversation, conversation and community:
don’t think of the Web as an advertising medium.  Sure, it had a few good years where a business presence online was simply a great way to get your marketing materials out there inexpensively, but those days are over.  Today everything is about engagement.  Engagement begins with conversation.


friday, april 22, 2011

mark pesce

Sharing Power (Aussie Rules)Power has always carried with it the ‘burden of omniscience’ – that is, those at the top of the hierarchy have to possess a complete knowledge of everything of importance happening everywhere under their control. Where they lose grasp of that knowledge, that’s the space where coups, palace revolutions and popular revolts take place.This new power that flows from the cloud of hyperconnectivity carries a different burden, the ‘burden of connection’. In order to maintain the cloud, and our presence within it, we are beholden to it. We must maintain each of the social relationships, each of the informational relationships, each of the knowledge relationships and each of the mimetic relationships within the cloud. Without that constant activity, the cloud dissipates, evaporating into nothing at all…When the hierarchy comes into contact with an energized cloud, the ‘discharge’ from the cloud to the hierarchy can completely overload the hierarchy. That’s the power of hyperconnectivity.In the 21st century we now have two oppositional methods of organization: the hierarchy and the cloud. Each of them carry with them their own costs and their own strengths. Neither has yet proven to be wholly better than the other.We need to think about the interfaces that can connect one to the other.

Jimmy Wales has said that the success of any language-variant version of Wikipedia comes down to the dedicated efforts of five individuals. Once he spies those five individuals hard at work in Pashtun or Khazak or Xhosa, he knows that edition of Wikipedia will become a success. In other words, five people have to take the lead, leading everyone else in the cloud with their dedication, their selflessness, and their openness. This number probably holds true in a cloud of any sort – find five like-minded individuals, and the transformation from cloud to storm will begin.

Authority in the cloud is drawn from dedication, or, to use rather more precise language, love. Love is what holds the cloud together. People are attracted to the cloud because they are in love with the aim of the cloud. The cloud truly is an affair of the heart, and these affairs of the heart will be the engines that drive 21st century business, politics and community.


what’s so electronic about an electronic book


sunday, april 24, 2011

mark pesce

add to game/share/click/match ideawhat Mark is foreseeing, those capabilities are already here
as he says, up to us to jump inif we have the boldness to jump in now, today, we’ll not only be unleashing our greatest resource, the human mind/spirit (young and old, because no doubt, most of both are currently bound, and both will naturally find/connect to each other), but also unleashing what tech wants… the good, the sharing… wholehearted living..
the web as connector of human souls, rather than ai-ish ideas most fear.Digital Citizenship________________________

sunday, june 5, 2011

mark pesce

just finishing up The Playful World…play = advanced experimentis Nicholoas Nigroponte a prototype of Joi Ito?don’t care about gizmo’s – just want to connect

anything known to anyone, anywhere, has become indistinguishable from what you know.

we are one

the real world, when touched and played with , is the best tutor.

concrescence: the production of novel togetherness. as things grow together, they become a new, unique thing. elements that seem unrelated can though time emerge as a whole.

changing what we know b transforming how we come to know it…

as the children of the playful world grow,… their language and customs may be sgtrange to us – but not because they are bad or immoral; they simply reflect a deeper understanding of the world we have created for them.

for we have given birth to our teachers.


saturday, may 21, 2011

mark pesce

The Social SenseWe can do more than act as sensors and share data: we can share our ideas, our frameworks and solutions for sustainability. We have the connectivity – any innovation can spread across the entire planet in a matter of seconds. This means that six billion minds could be sharing – should be sharing – every tip, every insight, every brainwave and invention – so that the rest of us can have a go, see if it works, then share the results, so others can learn from our experiences.yes – worth a repeat post…


monday, june 6, 2011

redefine space


At the end of Mark Pesce’s The Playfold World, he describes his thoughts as he enters Notre-Dame cathedral:

As I crossed the threshold,.. a sudden and unexpected sensation enveloped me. The somber quiet of the cathedral space, soaring upward to the heavens, produced a similar sense of peace within me. In a journey of just a few feet, I found myself, my being, in an entirely new space. It was as remarkable as it was unexpected – but this surely was the intent of the artisans, who, nearly a thousand years ago, labored to build this monument to God’s glory. Bachelard, as a Frenchman, understood the power of space to transform human nature; he had a defining example at hand.

Imagining a space such as this.. redefined to it’s original intent. And inhabited by people/purpose longing to be awakened by their inner art/genius.

Dear Artspace and et al… please take a listen to our YOUth longing for spaces of permission to be.

Imagining.. how that could change the world.


thursday, february 2, 2012

mark pesce

when i’ve 64

10:44 – intro to Genevieve

via @petervan his post – the future rarely arrives when planned
via @cocreatr

5000 times as much info, because rendered in 3d

  • Identity is a function of community
  • And not just identity > even TALENT is a function of and a recognized value of a community
  • The social graph is the foundation of identity
how do we make people feel more secure in a world where evermore is being tracked
herefore, Mark’s thesis that “a group of well connected highly empowered individuals is a force to be reckoned with” is one of the biggest forces in place. It has always been, but now returning in force thanks to our hyper-connectivity and information abundance.
the art of hiding in plain sight
a redirection of the audiences gaze
only frightening if we deny ourselves agency

sunday, may 27, 2012

mark pesce

Jennifer Sertl (@JenniferSertl)
5/27/12 6:37 AM
Disconnect to Connect…by @mpesce

 The self itself is under threat, not because of the erosion of privacy, or the inversion of public and private spaces, but because we can not find the time to tend it.

pesce is brilliant


nov 2016 –

Blockchain: how it will transform our economy, society and the internet itself

Mark starts around 6 min..
talking about travel receipts – magic.. create a signature for this info.. a hash.. unique
so about money.. no.. irrelevant
nice..we’re talking about potential of blockchain.. by guy who travels around speaking.. and needs receipts for travel..
13 min – nested russian dolls … continue to add blocks.. with signatures.. so proven mathematically.. not tampered with.. so.. trust..
13 min – this is the main innovation.. allows parties that don’t trust each other to share info
real world applications.. 1\full profile.. founded by commodities traders and farmers..
16 min – 2\ power ledger – wa – solar panels.. looking for better rate on electricity.. can actually sell to neighbors but need way to do accounting.. solar citizens to provide fundings/access.. hard – keeping track of who’s buying/selling what.. taken care of with blockchain
so blockchain to take care of irrelevants
18 min – another reason we need blockchain.. by  2030.. everyone w cells phones..tracking us.. zombie/hacker attacks.. what happens when breaks into.. drivable cars.. we have to guarantee
can we not use this mech – to facilitate a nother way to live..? rather than efficient ize.. our mess/sickness..?
20 min – smart contracts..
so blockchain to take care of irrelevants
23 min – what is it you need to be sure of.. in an environment you can’t necessarily trust
perhaps we design assuming – people are good
1:28 – world we live in is predator and prey.. so all hope for is faster.. but won’t ever see a world where real world can be trusted because math say it can be trusted…
dang.. no wonder.. not there yet..
rebecca‘s: ‘recognize the radical possibilities that can be built on an alternative view of human nature..’

interview w michel

Long interview, thanks to Marc Pesce in Sydney:

“Michel Bauwen’s P2P Foundation helps humanity share the best ideas at global scale, giving us a leg up through some tight years ahead.”

Original Tweet:

michel starts at 5 min

5 min – 4 basic ways of org ing human exchange

1\ h g didn’t want property – stops working when have about 150 people

dunbar ness

6 min –

2\ hierarchy brings down cost of communicating.. simplify beyond 150

3rd wave: to urban commons – ghent – any shared resource maintained by community following own rules and norms  1\resource 2\ human choice 3\ set own norms.. ecosystem becomes the commons

11 min – things we can do 1\ platform coops  2\ blockchain

12 min – next thing coming along.. limitation of urban commons redistributing only.. so next.. cosmo local production.. light global shared.. heavy relocalized

15 min – commons not just a choice.. a necessity..t


19 min – marc: how do we keep from feudal ness.. m: this is my hope.. collapse

moten abolition law.. why outside

20 min – we’ve already shown this can happen in food

22 min – mark: are they really building commons or just what worked for us.. m: the .. ‘it’s my turn’.. mentality can’t work.. it’s too late.. a final breaking of hope

24 min – mark: if that is the problem.. what solutions are we seeing..from arc of over consumption to arc of sustainability  m: you find them everywhere.. ie: one in china.. shenzen open source econ at core of their success.. national rule reconstruction movement.. ecosystems.. workers going to villages become the transport of food.. then train youth to do organic farming in countryside.. whole new consciousness.. creates income streams for everyone


27 min – also mumbai.. mit .. center for policy design.. students amazing.. complex analysis.. really critical thinkers.. so less group think.. creative socially..  couple projects 1\ solar labs – gives light at night.. millions of kids reading at night  2\ spoken tutorials 400 000 students using this outside unis.. colleges become members.. and anybody can register thru college.. professionally made by staff of about 80 people right now funded by indian govt and college fee.. get certification.. and then can join colleges


31 min – 3\ rd chi.. open source computer.. very cheap

32 min – marc: it feels over last 25 yrs there’s been a learning process going on.. how to work together at scale.. are we hitting an inflection point here..  m: i think so.. couldn’t prove this

dang.. learning isn’t the point..

34 min – people know we are stuck

35 min – a vision i have – how do we change the main system.. not only going to happen w seed forms.. an interesting movement.. common good econ movement.. christian felber..  every constitution say econ should serve common good.. to shareholders is not constitutional.. they have 2000 orgs/co’s applying common good balance.. imagine one day strong enough to have constitution convention.. and change complete structure.. every co.. goal is common good.. but co could still preserve selvess.. would have p2p on steroids

39 min – marc: can that happen globally? or locally .. does it have to happen all at once ..  m: no i don’t think so i think you need exemplars that can then replicate

i’m thinking not part\ial.. for (blank)’s sake.. so .. the partials have to be rapid and or simultaneous.. ie: a nother way

ie of replicate thru splitting..  once we have things that work they can replicate and spread.. but what i think is key is cities.. can do global open design.. not seen as local but trans local..

in the city.. as the day..

ie: cure ios city as infra


jan 2019 live on team human at civic hall w douglas

a demonology of algos []

on the need for pause

14 min – d: the minute you take a pause you are saying.. i as a human are worth something doing nothing

m: well – you’re paying attention to yourself and potentially the ones you are gathered with.. and so.. not doing nothing.. but that it’s a space that’s not about doing

be ing.. never nothing going on.. enough..

quiet in a room




15 min – d: on mark’s magical practice

17 min – m: if this were happening in 18th cent – we’d call it a demon.. that’s why this relationship w want to know what’s going on .. parts can be spirited away before you even know.. ie: 5 yr old thinks can shout at alexa.. and follow command.. so person can.. so how to inform world to human ness rather than de human..

20 min – m: on accommodating to dopamine stimulation – ie: slot machines

d: classical conditioning to induce an obsessive compulsive loop

21 min i- m: on people not knowing enough

d: on people needing to know more..

m: it’s us.. if we know us.. we can catch ‘whatever’ ..t

self-talk as data

d: how does this make me feel..

22 min – d: we have to re acquaint ourselves w us before we use anything..t

2 convers as infra

d: we have to ground ourselves.. that’s why you find everybody out doing yoga and mindfulness

so.. let’s get out of the space of doing (even mindfulness) and into a space that is ‘not about doing’

23 min – m: liminal dreaming – a cheat code we all have in us that gives us a passage into consciousness

m: part of what the hurry hurry culture does is it deprives us of – time w self – but our sleep/dream time.. we’re dream deprived now.. not just in the sense of rem sleep.. but in sense of how much vision can we think/give for ourselves.. in fact.. part of coming back to ourselves is giving ourselves time to dream

24 min – d: androids don’t dream.. dream is another human specific activity that’s being weeded out of a techno utilitarian culture

m: back to demonology.. w any large capital.. we need to approach it cautiously

25 min – m: what are the practices that bring us back to ourselves so we can check in w ourselves.. how do i feel about this

perhaps will become even less – how do i feel about this (i’m guessing you mean new tech et al).. and more about what matters to me.. ie: tapping into  daily curiosity  ie: cure ios city

26 min – d: can we promote a more human use of human beings.. will the algo’s hear that on a certain level and adapt.. will they become kind

we don’t need them to become anything.. we just need them to listen w/o agenda.. in order to facil our connections.. tech as it could be..

m: the thing i think we mostly haven’t grasped about ai.. is that ai is process it is not a product.. just as human begins are a process not a product.. and when we engage w an ai.. you can’t know what’s it’s doing till it’s reached it’s flower.. we’ve bestowed the gift of growth.. not just a tool.. if we realize that.. they will be kinder to us because we will have been kinder to them..


the ai humanity needs..augmenting interconnectedness

27 min – d: but right now we’re sending them out like little soldiers

m: yes.. so not surprising they have these unintended consequences.. ie: uber

? – not about an ai being kind.. it’s about us using tech for human/kind things.. ie: as it could be..

28 min – m: in some ways adversarial networks are useful (ie: uber battling it out).. but it’s not how you want to structure a civilization

? dang..

do we want to structure a civilization..?

28 min – d: in your hyperconnected (2009) you wrote of human beings hyper connected to one another.. i feel like instead of having human beings hyperconnected to one another we have ai’s hyperconnected to one another and human beings atomized.. if anything i feel like the ais are all talking to one another .. so if an ai finds an exploit in me.. it’s going to tell all its friends right away to try that on everybody else in the room

29 min – m: but let’s circle back to wikipedia.. which is the hyperconnected domain of human knowledge

hmm.. thinking that’s just words.. and just info..

m: we need to come back to that.. if we’re talking about hyper connected.. then it’s up to us to think about what the right mix of human and machine is.. and wikipedia is probably not the only way.. in fact it’s clearly not.. because open source efforts around the world.. huge range.. p2p foundation.. huge range of approaching this problem.. but they all do tend to be largely human.. probably telling us something we should listen to a lot more closely..

dang.. we’re so missing it.. basing everything on knowledge and connections of knowledge.. rather than connections of people

m: in fact it’s clearly not.. because open source efforts around the world.. huge range.. p2p foundation.. huge range of approaching this problem.. but they all do tend to be largely human.. probably telling us something we should listen to a lot more closely..

yeah.. combo

d: and then how do we behave as a result to listening to that

focusing on behavior and listening to others .. killing us

30 min – m: if we could be informed by that and we could take that into our practice.. then our practice is more human.. right.. and our relationships/lives are more human.. and less regimented/driven by the tone/tempos (?) being set by the *machines which are being programmed by people who have

dang.. what happened to your line at 21 min: m: it’s us.. if we know us.. we can catch ‘whatever’ .

i think we’re missing that it has to start from within.. first thing.. everyday

doesn’t really matter if we driven by *machines or people.. if we’re not listening to the voice w/in us.. first..  we fall into a world of control/supposed-to ness

listening to other people first can be as cancerous as listening to machines

m: we have a set of principles in play and we know how things can work because we have good ie’s.. and then it’s now on us

i don’t think we know how things can work.. i don’t think we have any idea.. because we’ve never let go of ie: control enough.. to really see us.. to see an undisturbed ecosystem

m: if we’re building something .. do we want to follow best practices.. one of the things i’m increasingly convinced of.. w ie: climate change.. buckminster fuller talked about and promised to design science revolution.. they said we really do need to step thru the entire design world and rethink it.. we now not only have the need to do that but we have the capacity to do it.. it was kind of hard to do in the 1980s when he was talking about it.. we simply didn’t have the infra

true.. but let’s not miss what the truly human infra could be.. ie: 2 convers as infra

31 min – m: human knowledge infra.. we actually now have that

yeah.. not that.. dang

m: and one of the things i would like to give the following generation as the vision is they have the need and the capacity

yeah.. but so intoxicated.. like us and because of us.. that they’re not sure what the need is.. the deep enough need.. to fully use the capacity for a global do over

m: when i see group of kids working on bronx.. i think.. that’s exactly it.. seeing a problem and saying we can solve this together

we need that pause first.. otherwise we’ll just keep adding (really nice/kind) bandaids

m: how do we take that and amplify that humanely .. to scale

make sure the mech/tech.. has us checking in with self first.. ie: self-talk as data

good deeds/bandaids won’t ever scale to everyone.. we need to get to the deepest problem first

32 min – d: used to be education (laughing)

no.. it was never ed.. come on guys

m: but here’s another point.. they tried to automate ed.. and that did not work well

this is reaffirming the whole idea.. that human or machine in control is bad.. education has never been about checking in with the person.. et al.. ie: cure ios city

i think you keep conflating a human body w humanity.. we compromised that a long time ago.. ie: most people are other people.. we have no idea what humanity could be

m: mentoring.. which is kind of the core aspect here.. is the most human of all human activities.. right?

no.. listening/loving is.. dang..

mentor: advise or train (someone, especially a younger colleague)

i think.. if we think we need to train .. we’re doing/being it wrong.. what happened to mr-rogers-being-enough-just-as-you-are ness

no train

we need eudaimoniative surplus.. via 7b plus people.. everyday

32 min – m: it is people.. it is you sitting w someone who needs to know something you know or you sitting w someone who knows something you need to know.. in my consulting work.. when i sit down w big businesses.. it’s like.. you need to figure out now how to make sure that the people who are *working for you can be spending half of their time learning the next thing they **need to learn.. cause that’s where we’re going.. that’s where we’re ***all going.. that is ****a profoundly human activity

*that’s just the problem.. – work – solving other people’s problems.. will never get us to eudaimoniative surplus..

**need to learn for you.. for big business.. not for them.. that’ll never work man.. never has.. (not toward global equity anyway)

***not all of us.. that’s not an all inclusive way to live.. thank god

****dang.. do not.. no matter how much emphasis you put on the word human

33 min – d: right and that’s where .. a peter thiel’s kind of a bastardized understanding of rené girard.. where he’s saying.. human being do mimesis.. therefore this company copies that company and that’s why they’re no good.. and it’s like.. no no no .. *human mimesis means.. i’m mimicking you in order to.. how do i get into what you’re doing..


mimesis: representation or imitation of the real world in art and literature; mimicry

*well it could.. if we lived in eudaimoniative surplus.. but we don’t.. we live for a paycheck, reputation, whatever.. thus .. wilde not us law

d: think about ed.. we’re so stuck in the idea of ed is to what now.. train kids for the jobs of tomorrow.. (laugh)

m: it’s to give them the confidence and skills.. but also the networks of human beings that they need.. so that as they approach a task/job/whatever.. *they can feel as though they have the skills and resources to succeed.. not that **we have to embue them w every bit of knowledge

dang guys..  words on a stage

your saying .. laughing at the same thing you are describing.. only diff is words

let go.. let’s try ie: cure ios city

*that’s crazy.. that’s creating fragile people.. dependent on a skill set and resources..

**lovely.. don’t lose your job

33 min – d: it’s not even that though.. when you look back at why they implemented public ed back in england.. it was not to make them better coal miners.. it was to compensate for a life of coal mining.. that at least they could come home and read a book and appreciate or be able to participate in electoral politics as informed citizens.. read the newspaper.. understand the issues



d: now we’ve made it.. another way for the public to pay training costs of workers for corporations.. but when you realize that ed was a value in its own right

nothing compulsory is of value in its own right (unless of course you are calling the shots.. on the stage.. )

m: then it deepens human experience

d: right

wrong guys.. not if it’s ie: voluntary compliance

34 min – d: we are in a room w a person who is going to show us how learning happens.. what learning is.. that’s mimesis

m: yeah exactly


let go

1 yr to be 5

35 min – m: we have less of the web that we could .. because if we didn’t everything we wanted to w human knowledge it would make our brains melt.. in some ways we aren’t smart enough to deal w collective intelligence of billions of people.. and *this is where ai can be of help.. can be a support can help us be smarter..

yeah.. not the intention (of a human).. rather.. let’s let that scale (7b plus) work for us in making connections.. not in gathering info to make us smarter.. more intelligent..

*helping us take in more info? really.. what we need is ai to help with the interconnectedness us to all those humans.. not the info..

the ai humanity needs..augmenting interconnectedness

m: but until we master how to make that human we won’t be able to have a deeper/nuanced conversation w ourselves or with an ai about that

2 convers as infra – no train – no mimesis

d: a lot of times i think we’re trying to blame ais for our own fear of one another

m: now we can be afraid of each other at scale

36 min – m: the only things you can bring into the net are things in your head.. you can’t bring your body in

m: you talked about all of the forces behind nationalism.. but you didn’t talk about the *most important.. language..  french.. as a single dialect.. formation of french state.. you go to china and realize china’s constantly fighting this very weird battle because there are 20 major language groups.. in part.. the idea of nationalism in china is so strong because the language boundaries are constantly trying to force it apart

*begs idio-jargonginorm small

37 min – d: and ultimately we all speak our own language.. but we find points in common for contact

let’s let that commonality for contact be.. idio-jargon.. via 2 convers as infra

m: that’s exactly it and i think that’s part of it.. but nationalism has been one of those points of contact.. alright.. plusses and minuses

? for who? how many?.. it has to be something for all of us

ie: nationality: human

m: it is time in the 21st cent to be able to have a nuanced convo about what it means to have human beings at scale

2 convers  – a story about people (all the people) grokking what matters..

38 min – m: hard to form your own nation.. easier to form gamergate

let’s just have daily gatherings.. via daily curiosity  ie: cure ios city

d: well.. because you don’t have to interact w actual people

d: kevin kelly in what tech wants.. which has its own problems..  he talks about how we increase our techs in order to increase our latitude of choice.. but what we’ve done w our choice.. ie: where people live.. #1 factor is to be w people like them.. we each want our own local.. and that’s a real problem

that problem is more about obsessing with identity.. if we lived via daily curiosity.. we’d realize everyone is like us (ie: we have no identity per se)

39 min – d: we’re self sorting to the detriment of .. the other

actually.. we’re not truly self sorting.. we’re sorting how we think we’re supposed to sort.. so .. to some false id..

if we used ai as..augmenting interconnectedness.. we would realize that in an undisturbed ecosystem with 7bn alive people.. (eudaimoniative surplus).. there is no other.. or.. we’re all others

d: we say on the show.. find the others.. people always think i mean find the other cool people ..*and i mean.. no .. find the **people who you think are the least cool that you can imagine..

*how does that jive with all your team human podcast guests?

rather.. fine the **people who are curious about the same thing as you.. today.. regardless of anything else

d: and then find them.. find the human being in that a-hole.. because he thinks you’re an a-hole

wow.. too much defense.. let’s play offense.. let’s use our energy for what matters most

40 min – m: but if that is your beginning line in a convo i think you need to step back and go and find the god in each person

d: but it’s no challenge for me to find the god in you..  i love you..

podcast guests..

d: for me to find the god in trump would be more difficult

m: then that is your hw

d: that is my hw.. that’s what i do.. i watch him on tv and i try to empathize

41 min – m: being reflexive is not really being human

right.. let’s org ourselves around that.. ie: 2 convers as infra

42 min – d: and designed by people (fb, google et al) who dropped out of college before they read – history .. sociology.. psychology..


m: *the protection circle we need around all techs is to connect them not just to science and math but the human realms.. sociology, anthropology, history, art.. this is how we as humans have learned to contend w all of the cheat codes that are **inside of us

rather *gershenfeld something else law

key that you say – **inside of us.. we have to drop all the learning/training.. and realize (again as you said earlier) we are enough as is.. we don’t have to study more.. rather.. we have to listen more..

we have no idea (perhaps never have).. what we are capable of.. what we could be.. ie: black science of people/whales

43 min – m: culture exists as both a series of exploits and defenses against the things that we are

rather.. defenses against ie: whales in sea world

d: then it becomes this arms race w armor and defenses..

m: you can’t opt out of that.. you can opt out of the armor.. but you can’t opt out of the fact that the rest of the world is running around doing it’s own thing

d: and people are in psychic wars they don’t even know exist..

44 min – d: what can we take.. what are the equivalent of the tools that a magic person would bring into this realm

m: there’s a basic rule.. pay it forward.. everything you do comes back 3x.. full stop.. whether you’re doing magic or not.. that’s just the way it works.. put out love/hate.. comes back 3x.. because things grow and they come back.. right.. it’s just karma.. whatever you want to call it..


m: so i think we all just have to sort of be a cross the fact that we’re not functioning in this vacuum at all and all the stuff we do is just whatever it does


d: but people think if they earn enough money.. they can somehow insulate themselves from the effects of their own actions

m: people want to believe that their shit doesn’t stink.. believing that is literally what global warming denial is.. we need to move beyond that .. that is infantile.. and the best way you do that is you mentor.. you present a diff behavior

wow..  an infant.. who hasn’t yet been scrambled..

45 min – m: it’s often said that when you present people w something that’s confronting to their belief systems .. you don’t try to force them out of it.. what you say is.. oh.. *we do this.. and you don’t actually highlight **what they’re doing as wrong but you simply present.. ***society’s doing.. we’re doing .. this.. and that that action acts as a ****much more interesting..

ugh.. *us/them ness

**why would you.. who’s to say..? back to gershenfeld something else law.. we need to let go of being inspectors of inspectors..

***back to your point about creating ‘other’.. no?

****to who?

let go of control guys

m: and again.. this is a cheat code.. because it’s around the way that we’re wired.. it’s around how you *onboard people into being slightly more team human

wow.. you – mark pesce – are in charge of *deciding what people need in order to be human? dang.

that’s not wiring.. that’s..

voluntary compliance

manufactured consent

supposed to’s..


social control

supposed to’s

let go

d: they go.. oh.. that’s an interesting thing

m: and you don’t go to war with them because what they’re doing is bad.. we do this.. alright.. and that’s mentoring right there if it’s done well.. that’s what a good mentor is constantly doing..

wow.. perpetuate dead people guys..

get mentors to think for you.. tell you what to do..

what the world needs most is the energy of 7bn alive people.. which happens in an undisturbed ecosystem

‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’

not in your kindly coercive mentor club

 m: i mean my best teachers as a magician.. i simply watched them work

yeah.. your choice.. you watched them.. they didn’t find you and then tell you ‘this is how we do it’

46 min – d: so what would be the .. just digital practices.. that we would want our children to imitate

dang.. let go

m: ie: the digital sabbath.. the more space in your day not connected to that

48 min – m: that’s around.. who’s running the show

sounds like your mentors are

(a section on mark’s attention tokens.. and how great it was because people who didn’t think they could reach him.. for advice et al.. could.. by paying for it.. dang)

53 min – m: last days of reality.. you should all read it

d: reading from it ‘we become entirely post real’

we already are

54 min – m: on same article/idea.. ‘to drive you to a particular out put’ .. that’s scary .. is that technically possible.. i think we’re on the borders and that’s why i wrote the piece because i just wanted to get it out there

that’s what your mentors idea is doing

55 min – m: what does it mean to be a part of team human and participating in a connected culture.. a lot of people are going to be taking up the ar spectacles.. going to be seen as a relief.. able to look up again..  but price.. where is your world view coming from

56 min – penny on stage w mark and douglas

59 min – m: my good friend genevieve bell working on 3 a’s of ai.. i think what we’ll learn is some better ways to be w our children