john on convos
48 min video – aug 2020 – The Evolving Conversation, John Vervaeke & Peter Limberg @peternlimberg
via michel fb share:
“How do we have conversations that can go into new territory?John Vervaeke and Peter Limberg are enmarked on a project to revive the ancient practice of ‘dialogos’, a form of dialogue that created the first wave of Greek philosophy. Peter Limberg will be leading a session for the Rebel Wisdom Community this Thursday, on the topic of Memetic Mediation, more details below, to take part, become a Rebel Wisdom Member. John Vervaeke has become known to many through his series ‘Awakening From the Meaning Crisis’. Since the release of this grand history of thought, he has turned his attention to the process of how we come to generate new ideas; dialogue and dialectic.”
How do we have conversations that can go into new territory? John Vervaeke and Peter Limberg are enmarked on a project to revive the ancient practice of ‘dialogos’, a form of dialogue that created the first wave of Greek philosophy.
new territory? or same song..
2 min – was having a convo w jordan hall.. i was trying to understand his notion of coherence.. and he suggested.. meta psychology.. i was thinking.. meta psych in ancient world was dialectic.. so i thought.. wow .. that’s right.. collective intell and individual wisdom.. relationship integral to dialectic.. that grabbed me..
so i thought.. what i want to do after the awakening form the meaning crisis.. is i want to explore that.. let’s really understand it deeply then bring it into dialogue w all these emerging modalities.. and see if we could create what jordan says we need.. which is the meta pyscho tech which would coord w the meta heuristic wisdom
so.. like a comment .. why so difficult.. so that a few stay in power?
let’s do somehting.. now.. for all of us..
let go guys.. or at least quit talking about emergence.. when you’re holding onto the reigns so tightly
and then of course.. the people at rebel wisdom start taking up this idea about collective intelligence.. and how important it is
wow.. so focused on ‘not all of us’
blinded by your intellect ness man
and i just keep participating in these convos w jordan and guy.. and personally it’s expanding.. what’s it mean for me.. i feel really privileged .. the timing for me is.. i’m on sabbatical.. so i could just go crazy over this.. it’s just wonderful
chomsky serious things law.. et al
5 min – on socratic dialogue.. challenging people to change.. i try to integrate insight and inference.. i try to get into a flow state when i’m teaching.. afforded if in dialogical relationship w my students
telling people what to do.. ness
6 min – diff between intelligence and rationality.. the way you get rationality is having an intelligence to apply to self.. one of hallmarks of rationality is to care about the process as much/more than the product.. the opp of bottom line thinking
7 min – starting to see.. good that we’re doing collective intell.. but we need to bring in the psycho tech that gets to what i call.. collective rationality (doesn’t mean logicality.. more comprehensive notion)
8 min – so moments of insight.. is like a problem reformulation.. aware of process.. opp to intervene
sometimes now use the word collective wisdom.. because that’s the rationality i’m going for..
how are we going to relate to and inhabit space of collective intelligence in order to turn it to collective wisdom to turn it to collective topics/concerns of humans
i think we have that all backwards.. i think we need to focus on the itch-in-the-soul first – (and today we can do that for 8b simultaneously.. that’s the new thing.. ).. let that guide us to augment our natural interconnectedness
10 min – manip and control revolves around problem solving.. i hear people saying the convos we’re having being around curiosity.. and i propose we shouldn’t do that.. i propose we should be thinking about wonder more
ah.. interesting.. wonder is about something already there..
wonder: ‘a feeling of surprise mingled with admiration, caused by something beautiful, unexpected, unfamiliar, or inexplicable.’
curiosity: ‘a strong desire to know or learn something.’
makes sense that you would suggest that.. fits more w people telling people what to do/learn/admire.. et al
11 min – and this is important because socrates famously said that wisdom begins in wonder.. because wonder puts you in a space where you’re confronting mystery.. calling into question self/world .. so they both can undergo the restructuring that you and i were talking about..
yeah.. i don’t care to split hairs on the wording of this..
i just know we’re too obsessed w supposed to’s.. which is basically why you’re doing this talk now.. no? finding out how to do things so you can tell others how to do things?
and socrates was not for that (not that one man matters.. that i want to debate a man’s pov.. that’s the opp of what we need.. just that you are quoting him)
11 min – wonder can be deepened into awe.. which has a power to *pull people beyond their egocentrism
i think we have that backwards too.. we’ve never really let any person think deep enough (to itch-in-the-soul) so we always thinking we have to *pull people places.. otherwise.. we think we’ll end of with some tragedy.. but that’s just because we keep non commoning et al.. we keep disturbing the ecosystem… and then calling that lord of the flies.. as evidence we need to pull people
12 min – seeing world too small.. put them in their place.. i see w plato turning wonder into awe.. and that’s what i feel is happening when i do this modalities..
it’s not curiosity.. i know what curiosity is like.. here’s a gap in the in the knowledge and i run an experiment.. and i try and close it.. and that’s good.. that’s how you deal w ignorance.. but we’re not trying to solve problems.. we’re tying to invoke a participation/wonder so that we actually platform people going thru a transformative process..
wow.. not my idea of curiosity.. but again.. doesn’t matter..
all i’m saying.. is we need to start from the itch w/in first thing everyday.. (whatever you want to call it) and use that as our data.. rather than try to get people to gather.. to pull people in.. to some ‘collective whatever’
otherwise.. that ‘transformative process’.. is always going to be something people were pulled/supposed-to go thru..
public consensus always oppresses someone(s)
i think we should pay more attention to terms/states that w’ere trying to inhabit.. becoming more familiar with participatory knowing of wonder.. is a way of moving into an i-thou relationship where i’m trying to construct that space for restructuring of id’s is possible.. so i can fulfill the developmental needs that are central to the being mode
dang man.. lots of words.. lots of enclosure happening in just that bit.. ie: 1\ why id? that’s too static for process 2\ whose deciding developmental needs.. who’s deciding what developmental means..?
let go.. let’s go with idiosyncratic jargon
and let’s get to deeper needs (and org around those): maté basic needs
13 min – that’s part of why you and i are doing what we’re doing.. we need to get more careful language/thought
that’s the opposite of what we need.. we need to let go of language
we need to start thinking about moving beyond the inception/promotion stage of these modalities.. as i said.. can we start to integrate them w good cognitive science and move them in a *particular direction
there you go.. you said *it..
let go of that control man.. let’s just see
14 min – (how to go about that – new ways of convo) – one of the tuitions is to get people to realize that it is possible to enter into (*see the words are so loaded).. to enter into **argumentation w/o entering into dispute
**what the world needs most is the energy of 8b alive people not more argumentation .. esp since we keep having all these convos/debates/whatever over non legit data.. ie: data from whales in sea world
14 min – what i mean by that is getting people to understand the diff between opponent processing and adversarial processing
plato had a term for this.. we come together.. and we each recognize we have bias.. and then i realize.. one of the things your bias is actually good for is pulling me out of mine.. and vice versa.. so we can fit together.. we can create opponent processing and create a logos.. that has us doing something we can’t do for ourselves.. because our biases are trapping us and making us stuck.. but if we coord them in the right way.. we can actually call each other beyond our biases..
wow.. what a waste of energy..
if you legit want pulled out of bias.. there’s a much simpler (and more complex) way..
let go man.. there’s a much better way to fit together.. and you/we’re missing it
15 min – so that’s a real possibility for people in contrast to the mentality of adversarial processing .. the love of victory .. which removes the possibility.. which is very much dependent on a point of processing – of self correction.. again .. if people can start to move to that idea.. they can be processing w/o being adversaries.. i think that’s a very important bridge
16 min – now what that looks like in terms of a practice.. i don’t know yet.. i see it happening in individual convos/dialogue.. but often happens when people bring this topic up for me.. then you can see that they get it and they shift.. they want to try it.. i’ve found it very powerful..
if we could get people to realize how much we need each other.. in this.. as opposed to needing to be right.. that could be a beneficial bridge..t
spot on there.. but has to be all of us.. with no agenda
let go of the pull/agenda/words.. and get to the itch-in-the-soul
2\ if we create a way to ground the chaos of 8b free people
17 min – i think the i-thou relating.. and bringing in rationality as i would describe it.. is.. can we get people.. if we get them to understand opponent processing.. can we get them back to valuing the process for its own sake
only if we let go enough of whatever process we think they need to have
you’re not trusting people.. so you’re thinking you need to set this all in place..
what we need .. is to quit thinking we’re right about any process.. and trust that 8b people already have whatever process they need to be themselves.. already in them
we just need to create time/space for 8b people to hear/see/grok that
so i’ve adopted some practices i do.. so.. how do i know if i’m really listening.. i know i’m really listening if another person triggers an insight for me.. so it’s a marker for me
at least you’re going both ways.. but i don’t think that’s how we get to wisdom.. ie: you’re waiting for someone else to tell/trigger you into what to do/be/learn/whatever
so if i can go.. oh wow.. restructuring.. and that didn’t originate with me.. that.. so i look for that and i try to sensitize myself for it.. and i try to set things up so people will feel free to sort of be more playful and possibly afford an insight
18 min – also .. i try to see where i can step back and exemplify self correction.. where i’m not trying to do some sneaky sly thing and trap you into conclusion i want you to come to but what i ultimately want for this is to engage in this kind of correction.. this self organizing self correction
let go man..
19 min – you have to be sensitive to.. there are certain arenas where that confrontation has to be more combative.. ie: scientific arena.. you have to come to conclusions for reasons of funding/publication/blah-blah.. so you have to accept that..
but if you’re not so much pursing knowledge.. but cultivating wisdom.. i think we can shift over to trying to.. i’m not saying what i proposed to you is exhaustive.. this is what i’m working on right now.. but *can we give people a list of things that they can pay attention to.. that are markers.. that they are oriented to the process.. and in opponent processing rather than adversarial
ie of opponent processing from your own nervous system and they way it helps you cope/care about the world.. autonomic (self governing) nervous system.. part of nervous system responsible for regulating your level of arousal.. how much metabolic energy are you expending.. and there’s no algo for that.. because sometimes you need to be really (high) and sometimes (low).. can’t be middling all the time
20 min – this is just an ie.. can see in multiple scales throughout biology.. but auto nerv: two subsystems 1\ sympathetic – biased.. tries to interpret environ to see if arousal should be raised.. 2\ parasympathetic – opposite.. trying to interpret as much of environ .. for arousal to be diminished.. so opposites.. constantly.. fine grained.. self org’d .. recalibration.. couple together.. that’s opponent processing.. self correction recalibrating on the fly
22 min – if we could mimic that intrapersonally what’s happening interpersonally
insights that prompt the circling.. then meta insights when you step back.. in our last circling i had both of those.. very powerful
23 min – on circling.. people often use mindfulness. .but they use a meditative analogy which i think isn’t as good..
let me try an analogy.. inner and outer eyes..
zoom dance ness.. without all the baggage.. a natural dance..
ie: rather than trying to mimic what our body does.. why not just trust that’s what will happen if we let go.. of that hard won order
25 min – inner awareness fused w outer awareness.. to get into corrective flow state..
what if we let go of corrective ness.. and trust ed us..
imagine if we just focused on listening to the itch-in-8b-souls.. first thing.. everyday.. and used that data to augment our interconnectedness.. we might just get to a more antifragile, healthy, thriving world.. the ecosystem we keep longing for..
let’s try that flow (rather than your defensive correctiveness/opponent ness
26 min – and this is all being coordinated (zoom in and out) to get to a collective flow state that accesses/accentuates.. the power of distributive cognition.. it engenders collective intelligence right there..t
maybe not the point..i’m thinking intellect ness is killing us .. and.. i think even doug (and george or whoever) would agree if he could see.. not about augmenting intell.. but augmenting interconnectedness..
i think the dance has to do more with eudaimonia\tive surplus
you keep saying process.. but you keep coming back to some endpoint/intelligence
27 min – mind sight.. ability to pick up on other people’s mental states.. we’re doing it now..
but.. if black science of people/whales law holds true.. and most/all people are not themselves.. what good is that mind sight.. (perhaps unless you pick up on other people not being themselves.. which you guys haven’t yet done/shown)
then i tailor myself to allow you to pick up more on me.. i read you.. that helps me better present myself so i can read you better.. and then we resonate
let go.. of that broken feedback loop.. let’s try instead.. self-talk as data.. so i’m not jumping thru hoop or trying to fit in boxes for you and you’re not trying to figure me out.. see if you can define/trust me.. whatever
what’s happening w a lot of the warm up exercises for circling is .. we’re tying to create mindset resonance
maté trump law et al
because if i know your mental state.. i’m much more successful at restructuring my communication so you’ll get me and vice versa
29 min – circling gets interpersonal to be novel.. gets brain talking to each other in ways that don’t normally do.. get that loop going.. loops powerfully
30 min – one thing i would like.. for our project.. i don’t want to mess w circling.. it would be nice if we could .. get beyond always reflecting.. we get all this coord going.. but have to then be able to do something other than then find another present moment.. like building a machine and then just looking how it runs rather than ‘what do i want to do w this’.. turn powerful self correcting machine onto issues like what is meaning.. what is a good life.. the things we need to have good discussions about right now.. because so much has fallen into empoverishment
34 min – profound in ancient sense.. trying to get understanding and self knowledge that can really get people to aspire to wisdom and enhancing meaning in life.. if going to be effective.. has to be able to reach everybody who wants to be less self deceptive.. more connected.. i think deep down everybody does want that.. t
which will happen if we (has to be all of us or we get tragedy of the non common) listen deep enough.. to hear what’s already there..
35 min – so we’ve got to engineer this and reverse engineer so they can do exactly that.. we can say.. we need a kind of cognitive diversity so we can enrich the ecology of practices as much as possible.. so that the evolution of the abilities we’re seeking are optimally afforded.. that’s what we need.. we need a lot of people involved..t
we don’t need a lot of people involved.. we need a means for it to be everyone .. today..
that’s the new thing.. ie: a means to listen to every voice.. everyday..
as long as people bring with it.. this attitude of serious play
no pre reqs.. design/engineer deeper.. so that there are no pre reqs (no matter how good they sound)
36 min – i don’t want to re create the salons where people sat around and talked while doing nothing while the revolution was brewing.. t
37 min – on a place where anyone can come
then let’s focus on undoing our hierarchical listening
39 min – (on not talking to each other).. so this is what you get in children according to piaget.. a fixation.. so what development often means is opening up the number of variables you find relevant and salient.. and that’s not just a belief thing but a developmental thing.. in order to stop falling prey to a certain bias.. so i’m trying to figure.. what are all the dimensions going on in dialectic.. and how can we teach people to coord them so they’re like a kid that goes from centration to adult that can pay attention to multiple variables.. *of understanding wisdom.. and that’s what i’m really interested in
wow.. yeah.. i think that’s all backwards.. it’s the (undisturbed) child that can pay attention deeper.. the adults need to let go of finite set of choices (of adult ness).. and get back thatnot yet scrambled ness
*yeah.. that’s the adult/intoxicated/scrambled mindset.. of thinking we have to know things.. that the child is free of..
40 min – on authentic dialogue (wild west vs academic) and antidote to crisis.. ie: epidemic research showing us.. people are looking for .. i find the term authenticity problematic.. people are looking for a form of discourse that brings in all of these levels.. *all these kinds of knowing.. so that underneath the communication there’s communing.. because people need to fee a deep connected.. and also flow is form w connectedness
i’m thinking the *knowing ness is what’s keeping us from the communing ness..
41 min – one thing that’s predictive of how meaningful your life is is how much flow you have.. being really connected is coupled w how world is unfolding
the mental fog that is preventing us from really getting grip on doing good problem formulation on the meta crisis.. is the meaning crisis.. we’re in scarcity mentality about meaning that reduces cog flexibility.. that removes capacity to flow/insight.. so like the kid you get locked in and hold on.. lose all ability to reformulate
42 min – so i think this is really good intuition.. that if we can’t figure out how to get the self correcting opponent processing going on again.. so we can massively restructure collective intelligence.. we’re not going to be able to reformulate the problem in the way we need to solve it
not about intellect ness.. let go of knowing..
it’s about the dance.. trusting the dance
we have all the data
we have no legit data..
all the info is there.. the info doesn’t change.. what changes is what’s salient.. we need an aspect shift on the meta crisis.. and i think *people have a sense that it’s got to be and aspect shift coming from collective intelligence.. the kind of restructuring that you and i have been talking about
*not this people..
43 min – (like parts of elephant) kids are egocentric.. and have to learn as adult.. you (kid) are seeing this from just one angle
oi.. then why do we give them so many meds.. to get them to focus..? if they are already so focused..
we have no idea (black science of people/whales law)
no idea.. what legit free people are like
44 min – i want to challenge the bs in individualism.. the idea that we’re all self made.. what made us so powerful was collective intelligence.. to coord together..
yeah.. so let’s let go of that
and in order to do that.. we need to trust everyone (quit trusting intelligence)
45 min – we are wired to seek it out.. t
yeah.. so let’s quit blocking it with thinking we have to tell other people what to do
already in each one of us
let’s use meta psycho tech (from 2 min) or whatever you want to call it.. to listen deeper
not solving .. and awakening.. out of way that is fogging our mind.. to solve this meta crisis
the meta crisis isn’t the point.. we won’t wake if that’s our focus