michel on protopia ness
michel bauwens on protopia
via tweet [https://x.com/mbauwens/status/2082870165553746356?s=20]:
This was the preparatory talk for my presentation yesterday:
* Protopia Interview with Michel Bauwens :
how to build a commons / p2p ‘scenius’, so that many ‘genial’ seed forms can emerge
notes/quotes from 19 min video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLryrd-yR6U]:
Protopia Interview with Michel Bauwens via agora citizen network .. Interview with Michel Bauwens, the founder of the P2P Foundation, for “Prototyping the Future,” an event on March 19th 2026 in Paris.
In collaboration with the Learning Planet Institute, RadicalxChange Foundation, and 706.
[all via transcript since health ness]
My name is Michel Bowens. I’m a Belgian. I was the founder of the P2P Foundation, which is an observatory of all things econdspeer-to-peer. And I mean translocal self-organization.
So the the capacity to create non-physical cooperation and commons if we do this through the digital that we are stronger if we have mutual resources common knowledge common open source code common designs that we can rely on together. So peer-to-peer in the comments is what we look at and how that influences everything.
1:06 – I was the first and last person outside of the cyberpunk mailing list that talked to Satoshi Nakamoto.
you referred to this uh concept of seniors, you know, which was um the I I personally learned about it from Brian Eno and Kevin Kelly. And Brian Eno was the musician that worked with David Bowie and Kevin Kelly was the first editor of Wyatt magazine. And so they’re they’re they kind of were saying that, you know, if you have a Michelangelo or Leola da Vinci or the Beatles that they they’re not just individuals, they ctually come from a a culture, a supportive culture. And that’s what they call seniors. So genius depends on seniors.
2:00 – the example they give is uh you know rock music really came about according to them because there was um an an unemployment but also unemployment money at the same time in the 1960s in England and so that gave these young people the time to actually be creative otherwise they would have you know just gone from job to job. Uh so it’s a bit of an accident that that you have these seniors. You need some kind of surplus in your society. Um and you know it’s an emerging phenomena.
So I actually would be quite shy to tell you what the conditions are. It’s like you know it’s like music. You know you’re like what is a hit song right now? You can analyze a hit song and then you know what they do now with these hooks with when they make music with a computer. The thing is you can do it two or three times and then people are already tired of it. So I think it’s the same with seniors. There’s no secret ssauce.
3:00 – but you know you need an openness in your culture, right? And like in Mai where I live in in northern Thailand, it has a whole history of being open to uh people who came from from abroad… again a bit like in England in 1960 it has a very cheap uh way of life in Paris even though it’s an attractive world city but it’s very expensive. People don’t have place uh you know it’s like a it’s busy.. but of course you know we we all have to try and find find what that source is in a particular place.
Maybe I want to tell you a second thing is that of course now we live in the time of the internet. And so maybe there’s a different way of looking at seniors than in the past, right? In the sense that maybe we can have distributed seniors. It’s worth thinking about where you know you have like a mini seniors in Paris and then you have a many seniors over there and a mini senior over there, but they they’re somehow interconnected.
4:00 – And I often refer to Jordan Hall who has a concept called the civium and his claim is and I find it very interesting is that because of digital technology we don’t need cities necessarily to create a seniors.. that you know network effect uh so you could do it outside of a city.
4:29
4 minutes, 29 secondsNow I heard that you live uh in the suburbs of Paris and you know who knows that you know that’s actually also an
4:36
4 minutes, 36 secondsinteresting place to do things you know um but anyway yeah so I think it’s important to think of seniors uh as not
4:45
4 minutes, 45 secondsjust something physical but also something that can reinforce each other
4:51
4 minutes, 51 secondstranslocally right what I call cosmolo cosmoloism is the idea that what is
5:00
5 minutesheavy should be local and what is light should be global and shared. Uh so the idea is that our you know neoliberal
5:09
5 minutes, 9 secondsglobal system is is at not really viable in the long run because we use too much resources.
5:18
5 minutes, 18 secondsUh so the extractive is not in balance with the regenerative and so we are going to need to do much
5:26
5 minutes, 26 secondsmore local production closer to to where people are uh you know to avoid these global supply chains. I think it’s
5:34
5 minutes, 34 secondsparticularly interesting to think about this you know in the context of the current war uh because you know we we see it the the
5:43
5 minutes, 43 secondsoil the fertilizers the sulfur all these supply chains are disrupted with very serious consequences. So cosmoloism is
5:51
5 minutes, 51 secondsabout you know where does our food come from where does our energy come from and it should be more local but we should
6:00
6 minuteswork together on a planetary level around science technology learning
6:08
6 minutes, 8 secondsknowledge um and the basic idea is you know in a digital network any innovation anywhere
6:15
6 minutes, 15 secondsin the network can be applied in every node of that network right so you have like an eco village doing I don’t know
6:23
6 minutes, 23 secondssome kind of farming let’s say permaculture but they’re learning from the 2,000 permaculture centers in the whole world
6:31
6 minutes, 31 secondsnot just from themselves right so and this is in a way it’s like an ecological accelerationism you know it’s like a
6:39
6 minutes, 39 secondsregenerative accelerationism I think Benjamin life talks about it regenerative accelerationism right it’s
6:46
6 minutes, 46 secondsthis kind of ideal synthesis between people who are embodied, you know, in their territory like in a bio-
6:54
6 minutes, 54 secondsregional context, but their brains and their cooperation is at a global level.
7:02
7 minutes, 2 secondsAnd to find that the ideal combination is really what cosmoloism is about. It’s don’t don’t give up on the planet. You
7:11
7 minutes, 11 secondsknow, Americans send shrimps to China to clean the shrimps and then the shrimps come back.
7:18
7 minutes, 18 secondsthat’s not a good thing, you know, it’s too expensive for the planet.
7:24
7 minutes, 24 secondsUm, so we have to start thinking in a different way and I think the crisis is going to accelerate the need.
7:31
7 minutes, 31 secondsUm, and it’s especially interesting for Europe and the US because you know in a way we need to re-industrialize but we can do it in the old way. we can’t
7:40
7 minutes, 40 secondscompete with China, you know, we can’t just go back to uh but so we have to find new ways to get out of this crisis
7:48
7 minutes, 48 secondsand I think it will be distributed manufacturing and distributed production and it needs its own culture and you know we need a seniors for that
8:00
8 minutesyou know if you think about what the neoliberal system was is uh we outsourced production to the global out for cheap labor.
8:12
8 minutes, 12 secondsThen we did mass migration to have cheap services.
8:17
8 minutes, 17 secondsAnd the west, you know, which which is a Germanic until maybe 1015 years ago, uh did the high value added value uh you
8:26
8 minutes, 26 secondsknow, cognitive uh processing and
8:32
8 minutes, 32 secondsum and that kind of but and then it also inhibited you know a lot of countries in the
8:40
8 minutes, 40 secondsglobal south to actually develop themselves, right? And so that’s really a problematic model and I think that
8:47
8 minutes, 47 secondsthat is the model that is kind of uh collapsing right now. So we the west and
8:54
8 minutes, 54 secondsI say we I don’t intendify with it you know but of course I come from the west um you know the idea that this is a
9:03
9 minutes, 3 secondslong-term uh system is now is now dying and um of course China is is an
9:11
9 minutes, 11 secondsinteresting model in it you know in in terms of this kind of unique combination of planning markets and cybernetics
9:20
9 minutes, 20 secondsuh which is you know applied at at the societal level and in the west we can do it. We we only do it internally in the
9:28
9 minutes, 28 secondsbig companies. we don’t do it for the common good. And you know, I don’t want to idealize China in that context, but it’s it it’s it was efficient and it
9:37
9 minutes, 37 secondsworked and it changed the balance of power. But I I still think that China is not yet in a position where it actually
9:46
9 minutes, 46 secondsable to live in a balance with with the natural world. Right? So it’s successful but it’s still successful in the context
9:52
9 minutes, 52 secondsof modernity of actually overusing uh matter and energy and I don’t I’m not convinced that this model will be able
10:01
10 minutes, 1 secondto do it and so what we are proposing with cosmoloism you know is uh is a different way of
10:08
10 minutes, 8 secondsthinking about the the world order as an archipelago of regenerative projects. So you you will still have nations because
10:16
10 minutes, 16 secondspeople live together geographically but we can also organize translocal nations
10:22
10 minutes, 22 secondsnetwork nations but not like Balaji Sri Nasan you know who it’s also about creating these merchant cities and where
10:30
10 minutes, 30 secondsyou become a member of a corporation I’m thinking in connections between you know eco villages between permaculture
10:38
10 minutes, 38 secondscommunities between renewable energy cooperatives um but and created digital unity
10:46
10 minutes, 46 secondsand and digital forms of nationhood where people actually feel ident you know an identity that that evolves from
10:54
10 minutes, 54 secondsthis collaboration and this common goal you know which is actually saving the planet. So that’s kind of the difference between you know modernity and and what
11:03
11 minutes, 3 secondswe propose is uh is you know distributed everything is distributed not just knowledge but physical production
11:12
11 minutes, 12 secondssmaller units and they have a design collection that is available in the whole world and then you make it right
11:21
11 minutes, 21 secondsso for example there was a project called arrival which it didn’t work out in the end but it was a I think a brilliant an
11:29
11 minutes, 29 secondsidea. So they had reduced car making from 750 to 50 processes.
11:38
11 minutes, 38 secondsUh and then they were making trucks and buses and can and uh and and uh different not cars but everything else
11:47
11 minutes, 47 secondsfor municipalities, right? And totally locally made with biodegradable materials, you know, everything interoperable, modular.
11:58
11 minutes, 58 secondsuh this is the way to go. It it’s not working out as yet uh this particular project, but I heard that Chinese EV
12:06
12 minutes, 6 secondsproducers are actually uh have a open-source factory in Barcelona. I need to know more about it, but I’m interested in in finding out more about it.
12:20
12 minutes, 20 secondsHave different models. So the model of balajis rivenasan in the network state is a revival of mercantalism and that
12:29
12 minutes, 29 secondswas a movement in the six you know until the 16th century where you had free cities uh and this is especially European because you didn’t have free
12:38
12 minutes, 38 secondscities and empires you know for a long time you need to uh and so Europe was disenited so you didn’t have an empire
12:45
12 minutes, 45 secondswhich allowed all these free cities to exist uh in Italy the city states in Flanders bru Jin Gent, the Hansiatic
12:52
12 minutes, 52 secondsLeague, right? And they were independent cities first run by the merchant by the guilds and then by the merchants when
13:01
13 minutes, 1 secondthey became stronger. Uh, and I think that’s what he wants. He wants cities that are run by corporations.
13:09
13 minutes, 9 secondsI find that personally regressive.
13:12
13 minutes, 12 secondsI I think citizenship is a great advance. You know, political equality and you know like Liberland, you know,
13:22
13 minutes, 22 secondsI’m not saying it’s not interesting and you know, go ahead and try, but you need you need money to vote,
13:30
13 minutes, 30 secondsright? So, it’s $1, one one vote. If I have 5,000 and you have 100, I have 50 more times more votes than you.
13:40
13 minutes, 40 secondsSo I I personally I find that regressive. I don’t think that’s that’s the the future. So then the second model is a network nations model which is
13:48
13 minutes, 48 secondsdefended by Primav de Philippe and and a group of research and I sometimes part of it. So that’s network.nations on on
13:56
13 minutes, 56 secondsthe on the internet and they are more about you know creating um territories
14:05
14 minutes, 5 secondsand they’re you know and they’re not like that. They’re not just companyrun uh territories.
14:11
14 minutes, 11 secondsUm I’m not sure that I the same or slightly different. So I I would like to see
14:18
14 minutes, 18 secondstrans local federations like I don’t think we need to be in the same physical location. I think we can
14:27
14 minutes, 27 secondshave a number of villages that do something together.
14:32
14 minutes, 32 secondsEither they do all the same, you know, like Eco Village Federation, or they are complimementaryary to each other, but they create a common digital identity.
14:42
14 minutes, 42 secondsAnd this is what I call the archipelago of regenerative projects.
14:47
14 minutes, 47 secondsUm, and I think they will coexist. I don’t think we can abandon geographic existence. You know, we have bodies. We
14:56
14 minutes, 56 secondsneed to be embedded in a bio region or a nation.
15:01
15 minutes, 1 secondBut in the new sphere, the sphere of the mind of the cooperating minds, I can work. I’m not talking to you and you’re in Paris and I’m in in Bangkok, right?
15:12
15 minutes, 12 secondsAnd we could work together. We could actually run a company together. And it this is already happening, right?
15:20
15 minutes, 20 secondsSo we could create some form of community that actually creates solidarity,
15:28
15 minutes, 28 secondscommon influence and that acts a bit like what a how a state acts like, right? And
15:38
15 minutes, 38 secondsit’s too early to see how these will coexist, but I think there will be some kind of synthesis between the physical and and the non-physical.
15:48
15 minutes, 48 secondsAnd that’s really where you know what the new civilization is about is finding solutions to that to that you know cooperation between these two levels.
16:00
16 minutesFirst of all, I I personally think conversation itself is crucial. Uh because people always think they have to
16:08
16 minutes, 8 secondsact and to do stuff. But I think to create a common spiritual field
16:15
16 minutes, 15 secondsis very important and the problem of our era with the digital is automization. We already had it before, but it’s now
16:23
16 minutes, 23 secondshyperatomization. So I don’t know what you know. I don’t know what you’re reading. I don’t know what you’re watching.
16:31
16 minutes, 31 secondsAnd the okay, we seem to be able to talk together, but there’s a lot of people I cannot talk to because they hear a word
16:38
16 minutes, 38 secondsand they get triggered by that word and they just assume that I mean something with that word, right? Because in their
16:46
16 minutes, 46 secondsenvironment, it’s a loaded concept. I don’t know that because I don’t know what they’re reading and watching that makes them
16:53
16 minutes, 53 secondsthink that way. And so the idea to create a social coordination mechanism this is a concept from OG Rose that you
17:00
17 minutescan find I think is very important. Now second thing is decision making but I want to give a warning you know when
17:08
17 minutes, 8 secondspeople say democracy don’t work doesn’t work it’s not that necessarily because our
17:16
17 minutes, 16 secondsour methods are wrong it’s because that we have no power the power isn’t transnational finance
17:23
17 minutes, 23 secondsthey can move you know and decide the economy so the the reason we have a crisis of democracy in my view is not
17:32
17 minutes, 32 secondsjust that we need to renew the voting mechanisms or whatever, we also need to say, well, do we actually have power,
17:39
17 minutes, 39 secondsright? And that’s why I go back to our previous discussion. We need to create linkages with power.
17:49
17 minutes, 49 secondsSo I that’s why I dream of this archipelago of of of regenerative villages because you you you think about like where is our food coming from?
17:59
17 minutes, 59 secondsWhere’s the renewable energy coming from? We cannot assume that we always gonna have these huge numbers of people
18:06
18 minutes, 6 secondsright who live from the cognitive uh because we in crisis because of AI right every new mode of production is
18:15
18 minutes, 15 secondsvery cruel when we invent agriculture we destroy the tribes
18:21
18 minutes, 21 secondswhen we invent industry we destroy the peasantry
18:28
18 minutes, 28 secondsright now with AI and robots we can make a lot of people observate potentially, right?
18:39
18 minutes, 39 secondsSo, we need to think about that and I I think we should think about the physical just as much as about like how do we make decisions and how do we talk to
18:47
18 minutes, 47 secondseach other so it’s a two-level thing. Uh yes, we should talk together. Uh but also we should think about like how do
18:55
18 minutes, 55 secondswe create new forms of solidarity with each other.
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be you. 