first intro’d to Jordan when Jordan Greenhall was trying to connect with him..
re intro’d/intrigued via Greenhall‘s fb post here
Seems it is time to prune the old friends tree. I’ve increasingly noticed that Jordan Peterson is a pretty darn good filter. I’m not a strong on Jordan Peterson as David Fuller appears to be, judging from his new Medium post (https://medium.com/…/the-man-for-the-times-of-chaos-jordan-…), but I’m easily a 4 out of 5 on Mr. Peterson.
Some folks really, really dislike him. If you are a 1 or a 2 on JP (roughly ranging from “evil misogynist homophobe” to “narcissistic buffoon”) and you are my friend, we should part ways. Ideally amicably.
notes from post
“The truth is something that burns. It burns off dead wood. And people don’t like having the dead wood burnt off often because they’re *95 percent dead wood. Believe me I’m not being snide about that. It’s no joke. When you start to realize how much of what you’ve constructed of yourself is based on deception and lies, that is a horrifying realization. It can easily be 95 percent of you and the things you say and the things you act out.” – JP
As a Jungian psychologist he explicitly links this journey to the concept of the encounter with our personal ‘shadow’ — the part of ourselves we repress or deny.
“If you’re not using your own words you’re the puppet of an ideology or another thinker or your own impulsive desires. You can tell when you’re speaking like that because it makes you feel weak — it makes you feel weak and ashamed and you can localize that feeling physiologically if you listen to yourself talk. You can tell when when you’re speaking properly you will experience a feeling of integration and strength and when you’re speaking in a deceitful or manipulative manner you’ll feel that you’re starting to come apart at the seams.* What you need to do is practice only saying things that make you feel stronger. You’ll notice that almost everything you say is a lie. It’s either a lie or someone else’s words. It’s very hard to find your own words — and you don’t actually exist until you have your own words.” -JP
“…It’s the idea of the Logos — which means something like coherent interpersonal communication of the truth — and from an archetypal perspective it’s the action of the logos that extracts order from chaos.
rev of everyday life ness
We make order by articulating truth and then we inhabit the order. The order is the negotiated social agreements we come to to live among each other without tearing each other to shreds — which is basically what chimpanzees do to each other — so we need to negotiate the social order and we do that through articulated speech.
….the word made flesh, which is the instantiation of the logos in the body so that it’s acted out in the world. It’s the fundamental proposition of western culture — and we’ve lost it, and we will not survive without it.” – JP
This is a central feature of his thought — that the universities in particular (and culture at large) have fallen under the sway of a new version of Marxist thought — hidden inside a worldview of ‘opposing oppression’. How even if this worldview has elements of truth, and is followed by people driven by compassion and a desire for justice — it has become a fixed and divisive ideology.
“There are no shortage of flaws in the manner in which we’ve structured our society and compared to any hypothetical Utopia is an absolutely dismal wreck. But compared to the rest of the world and the plight of other societies throughout the history of mankind we’re doing pretty damn well and we should be happy to be living in the society that we’re living at. – JP
have you read the divide..? just mercy..? chasing the scream..? … witnessed the indigenous..? i could go on..
yeah.. lots better for some.. but for many.. they should be happy to be living in the society that are..?
So the first thing that you might want to note about postmodernism is that it doesn’t have a shred of gratitude. And there’s something pathologically wrong with a person who does that it doesn’t have any gratitude especially when they live in what so far is the best of all possible worlds. – JP
oy – that world where we are 95% not ourselves.. and so suicide is souring.. and we are incarcerating so many.. wtf..?
And so if you’re not grateful you’re driven by resentment, and resentment is the worst emotion that you can possibly experience *apart from arrogance. Resentment arrogance and deceit. There is an evil triad for you and if you’re bitter about everything that’s happening around you despite the fact that you’re **bathed in wealth then there’s something absolutely wrong with you.”
*exactly.. arrogance/blindness from the bubble
As a psychologist Peterson would agree that the idea of moral progress is an illusion. No matter the technological advances of society — each human being starts again from *zero at birth — and has to learn anew the moral lessons and how to live, with **the same propensity to fall into habits of thought and belief structures that are influenced by the worst aspects of ourselves.
not *zero.. not **the same.. ie: imagine a turtle..
some stuff i don’t understand what he’s (thru this author) meaning
“I think the solution is an individual one. Because the other solutions are collective and the collective solutions are in some sense the problem.
yes that.. we have the means today to redefine decision making.. so we can’t not.. because.. public consensus always oppresses someone..
…he people that I’ve found that have been most useful in that regard have been Dostoevsky and Nietzsche and Carl Jung and a smattering of others but I think they have their finger on the pulse.”
No self-respect, no power, no ability to voice your opinions. Nothing left but resentment because everyone is against you because of course you’ve never stood up for yourself. It’s like say what you think. Carefully pay attention to your words. It’s a price you want to pay if you are willing to believe that truth is the cornerstone of society and in the most real sense if you’re if you if you’re willing to take that leap then tell the truth and see what happens.
Nothing better could possibly happen to you. There’ll be ups and downs and there’ll be push back and there’ll be controversy and all of that but it doesn’t matter.
ok.. now this is another huge myth.. it’s not that people are timid.. voiceless.. maybe the people you know.. zoom out man.. to many people push back would be a luxury
good news.. we have means to hear all the voices.. today..
U Toronto Psychology Professor
Jordan Bernt Peterson (born June 12, 1962) is a Canadian clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. His main areas of study are the psychology of religious and ideological belief, and the assessment and improvement of personality and performance. He authored Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief in 1999.
Peterson grew up in Fairview, Alberta. He earned a B.A. in political science in 1982 and a B.A. in psychology in 1984, both from the University of Alberta, and his Ph.D in clinical psychology from McGill University in 1991. He remained at McGill University as a post-doctoral fellow for two years before moving to Massachusetts, where he worked as an assistant and associate professor in the psychology department at Harvard University. In 1997, he moved to the University of Toronto as a full professor.
In 2016, Peterson released a series of videos on his YouTube channel in which he criticized the Canadian government’s Bill C-16. The videos sparked an ongoing controversy that received significant media coverage.
The series of videos drew criticism from transgender activists, faculty, and others, and critics accused Peterson of fostering a climate of hate. Protests erupted on campus, some including violence, and the controversy attracted international media attention. In November, the National Post published an op-ed by Peterson in which he elaborated on his opposition to the bill and explained why he publicly made a stand against it. He stated:
I will never use words I hate, like the trendy and artificially constructed words “zhe” and “zher.” These words are at the vanguard of a post-modern, radical leftist ideology that I detest, and which is, in my professional opinion, frighteningly similar to the Marxist doctrines that killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century.
I have been studying authoritarianism on the right and the left for 35 years. I wrote a book, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief, on the topic, which explores how ideologies hijack language and belief. As a result of my studies, I have come to believe that Marxism is a murderous ideology. I believe its practitioners in modern universities should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to promote such vicious, untenable and anti-human ideas, and for indoctrinating their students with these beliefs. I am therefore not going to mouth Marxist words. That would make me a puppet of the radical left, and that is not going to happen. Period.
certainly barely taking him in..
gut reaction .. hard to take people that think they have a better way to live.. but first they have to train you.. ie: how to change world – properly..? [ie: at 28 min he says.. better grades.. better grad rate.. so it works.. click purchase for 14.95.. then enter this code.. wtf]
Jon fb share
Very good takedown of Jordan Peterson’s work.
“”His grotesque caricature and slander of the humanities is very different from what actually happens in humanities classrooms.
Peterson may believe that all humanities courses have united under the banner of “postmodern neo-Marxism,” but even a first-year undergraduate soon realizes that her professors often disagree and that the “humanities” are not a monolithic entity.
They are, instead, a teeming diversity of subject matter, methodologies, and modes of critical thinking.””
Few in the media who have lauded Peterson as being “right” on free speech in universities have bothered to qualify that he is dangerously wrong about everything else, thus bringing him new followers and burnishing his brand.
That brand has become immensely profitable: after Peterson was denied a sshrc grant this year, his friends at the Rebel launched an Indiegogo campaign that has netted him, at the time of writing, $195,230. Meanwhile, his Patreon page is now bringing in more than $60,000 each month from approximately 6,400 supporters. His YouTube channel, where he uses material filmed during his U of T lectures to flog his fundraising programs—which should raise serious ethical concerns for the university—has more than half a million subscribers. It seems indisputable: Peterson is now the most famous professor in Canada.
Peterson’s immense popularity on the far right lies precisely in his intellectual validation of those traditional power hierarchies as natural and necessary—a message perfectly attuned to those who feel dispossessed and threatened by movements for sexual and racial equality. Most of Peterson’s videos offer variations on the theme that human behavior is the product of an ancient “male dominance hierarchy” that separates winners from losers—and that any attempt to question or subvert this hierarchy will result in unhappiness for the individual or chaos for society.
To fully grasp the depth of Peterson’s belief in power hierarchies, take his commitment to IQ testing: “If you don’t buy IQ research,” he has told his students, “then you might as well throw away all of psychology
Peterson’s commitment to IQ is simply the reflection of his commitment to an unalterable hierarchy of human beings.
via Jason fb share
How did we lose the bliss of living in the present moment?
7 min – what is work.. you sacrifice the present for the future.. putting all the potential suffering of the future and putting it into the present.. so maybe you live longer and maybe you’re healthier.. but you’re not w/o the burden that that puts on you
livestream jan 15 2018
Twelve Rules for Life | Jordan Peterson | RSA Replay
with Jonathan Rowson @Jonathan_Rowson
11 min – diff between a center and the center.. that’s diff between sanity and insanity
i found the alt to group belief.. was the continual transformation of belief.. continual quest (itself)
bravery to change mind everyday
14 min – we are adapted to the group.. but we are simultaneously.. the revitalizers of the group.. even complex animals aren’t that.. so necessary for our social structures to reflect that.. or we do the wrong thing.. ie: put group before the individual
18 min – activists.. act like they care about big system.. idea is that you should clear yourself out first
20 min – cleaning your own room.. takes way more than you think
21 min – you risk inflating your own ego attempting problems of the world
22 min – realize that you are lacking and will make big systemic worse.. attend to your own competence/limits
23 min – on a 12 yr old (actually talking to 18 yr old).. you don’t have any responsibility.. you don’t have a degree.. you can’t think.. don’t know how to present self.. so shouldn’t change socio econ of structure..
wow.. that’s exactly what we need.. all you listed was toxic.. i’d rather talk to a 5 yr old
26 min -your bedroom is a microcosm of the planet
boyan slat a model for young people.. cleaning ocean in 5 yrs.. and going to make a profit.. not telling people what’s wrong (protest).. i’m going to go out and fix it..
28 min – you cannot fix a complex system unless you understand it..
(jonathan): the language of fixing is not helpful here.. because it’s not a mechanical problem..t
29 min – it’s compassion masking uselessness most of the time
(jonathan): someone says.. you don’t have sociological imagination.. no view of diff world and how to get there.. how to get people to not believe that..
have them read the book
man.. talk about ego.. humility.. yeah
34 min – we have to org society in ways people want to play.. and game can’t degenerate
35 min – you lay out a better game
(jonathan): which is
well that’s what this is all about
38 min – it’s just so hard to conduct yourself right now in a way that’s going to improve yourself in a week.. there aren’t that many pathways.. may be just one game like that.. but
via leigh suggestion as his fav of jp’s
oct – 2017 – Modern Times: Camille Paglia & Jordan B Peterson
5 min – c: they are like high priests murmuring to each other
7 min – j: jealousy and resentment as a fundamental motivator
20 min – c: they know nothing before the present.. this is how ignorant that man was..
she sound elitist herself..
22 min – j: self-evident to anyone who has even a smattering of psychiatric training.. nobody who’s a sophisticated thinker ever thinks that..
like high priests murmuring to each other..?
23 min – c: the level of ignorance of these people that think foucalt is so original have not read durkheim..
my bad.. but i can’t listen anymore
i did skim thru the rest..
next day another leigh fb share from jan 16 2018
14 min – it’s opp that needs equality.. equal outcomes are not desirable..
19 min – market is driven by women – 80% than by men
24 min – but they don’t have a right to speak for their whole community.. the philosophy that’s guiding their utterances is the same philosophy.. as one that already has driven us to the deaths of millions of people
25 min – the philosophy assumes that group id is paramount.. and that’s the fundamental philosophy that drove the soviet union and maoist china.. and it’s the fundamental philosophy of the left wing activists.. it’s id politics.. it doesn’t matter who you are as an individual.. it matters who you are in terms of your group id
26 min – on lobsters.. hierarchical structure.. not sociological construct of western patriarchy.. we divulged from lobsters.. and they exist in hierarchies.. and their nervous system runs on serotonin.. 1/3 of bn years of evolutionary history of animals and people running a long same structures..
28 min – i’m not saying there’s nothing we can do about it.. but can’t break the rules.. biological rules.. one thing we can’t do is say hierarchical org is a consequence of the capitalist patriarchy.. that’s patently absurd.. it’ not a matter of opinion.. it’s seriously wrong
what about stigmergic ie’s..? are you calling those ginorm small hierarchies..? ie: art ist bot ist ness
jason fb share
I think I’m someone who is properly terrified. I’ve thought a lot about very terrible things. And I read history as the potential perpetrator – not the victim. That takes you to some very dark places. Also, this book isn’t only written for other people. It’s a warning to me. I’m also saying: ‘Look the hell out because the chickens come home to roost.’ If I’ve learned one thing in 20 years of clinical practice, it’s that. I swear I’ve never seen anyone get away with anything in my whole life.
Peterson talks a lot about the power of resentment in his writings. We hate those who are better than us (God, Abel) and want to destroy them, then lie to hide from the consequences. “Consult your resentment,” he says. “It is revelatory. Don’t underestimate malevolence and don’t underestimate the utility of your capacity for malevolence. If you’re weak, you should turn yourself into a monster. It’s a funny thing, that ‘monster’ is better than ‘nice’. But it’s not as good as ‘not monstrous’. And that’s the next thing to achieve. But cowering in your basement resenting everyone is the real pathway to darkness.
.. His primary concern, however, which underpins nearly everything about him, is the defence of the individual against groupthink, whether on the right or the left.
Peterson’s 12 rules
Rule 1 Stand up straight with your shoulders back
Rule 2 Treat yourself like you would someone you are responsible for helping
Rule 3 Make friends with people who want the best for you
Rule 4 Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today
Rule 5 Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
Rule 6 Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world
Rule 7 Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
Rule 8 Tell the truth – or, at least, don’t lie
Rule 9 Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t
Rule 10 Be precise in your speech
Rule 11 Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding
Rule 12 Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street
Jason Silva (@JasonSilva) tweeted at 7:56 AM – 26 Jan 2018 :
At some level Peterson is offering assertiveness training to men whom society is trying to turn into emasculated snowflakes
And Peterson personifies the strong, courageous virtues he champions. His most recent viral video, with over four million views, is an interview he did with Cathy Newman of Britain’s Channel 4 News. Newman sensed that there was something disruptive to progressive orthodoxy in Peterson’s worldview, but she couldn’t quite put her finger on it. So, as Conor Friedersdorf noted in The Atlantic, she did what a lot of people do in argument these days. Instead of actually listening to Peterson, she just distorted, simplified and restated his views to make them appear offensive and cartoonish.
Peterson calmly and comprehensibly corrected and rebutted her. It is the most devastatingly one-sided media confrontation you will ever see. He reminded me of a young William F. Buckley.
The Peterson way is a harsh way, but it is an idealistic way — and for millions of young men, it turns out to be the perfect antidote to the cocktail of coddling and accusation in which they are raised.
2nd (?) documentary (54 min) on Jordan by David Fuller (w/ Jordan Greenhall)
33 min – jordan p: animus possession – carl jung – interview was text book case.. female rep of male – the animus.. is the dominance hierarchy.. the patriarchy.. the unconscious archetype.. happened in women’s movement.. projected onto man.. treats a man as the group of bad men
36 min – louise mazanti: what we can do w this.. because it’s all of us .. this unowned rage.. needs to come out.. on the other hand.. it’s not enough
39 min – david fuller: dangerous when certain convos are off limits
42 min – saying same from both sides..
begs we get to the root of healing via 2 convos
50 min – jordan g: *1\ really need to set yourself free to begin learning a new.. child’s mind **2\ this by nature must be exploratory.. so swim.. to allow the natural exploratory approach do what it needs to do.. ***3\ really just listen.. go all the way back down to human base ****4\ reconnect w fundamental human capacity *****5\ relearn how to use other human beings to make sense of the world.. really re learn.. we have been abused/constrained by institutional frameworks that remove us from our own native capabilities.. ******6\ your job .. learn how to feel from raw chaos/uncertainty..
*do this first.. 1 yr to be 5 .. et al **via 2 convos .. as the day ***quiet enough to go deep enough.. ongoingly ****holmgren indigenous law.. to get to the energy we need *****as it could be.. toward 2 convos (30 min of attachment) .. almost exclusively in person ******mech to facil chaos of uncertainty/free people.. toward antifragile us.. as it could be
He’s asshole-pilled himself https://t.co/FfyR8QinRn
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/doxtdatorb/status/985301856342691842
Peter Joseph (@ZeitgeistFilm) tweeted at 1:51 PM on Thu, Apr 19, 2018:
“Peter Joseph on Jordan B. Peterson”
Peter Joseph (@ZeitgeistFilm) tweeted at 1:46 PM on Fri, May 18, 2018:
I seriously can’t wait for the Cult of Jordan B Peterson to meet its tragic end.
“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy…”
Part of Peterson’s deep allure is that sprinkling references to ancient myths, legends and religious texts can make a completely banal and even wrong/stupid point sound deep and wise. I know; I’ve *done this myself*, heh. Alas. 5/x
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/pomeranian99/status/997496087417118720
I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter. Now I think he’s dangerous
I knew Jordan when it was possible to know him up close. He was always a complicated man. Even then, it was hard to get a fix on what he was doing. But some things were clear and consistent. In retrospect, I might have seen this coming. I didn’t.
Bernard Schiff is professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Toronto and former publisher of The Walrus.
Jonathan Rowson (@Jonathan_Rowson) tweeted at 3:11 PM – 21 Jun 2018 :
I learned a lot from trying to form a view. Overall I am disappointed by Peterson, because he doesn’t offer answers for society as a whole. But I’m even more disappointed in those who reject him based on social media fragments, without taking time to understand his worldview. (http://twitter.com/Jonathan_Rowson/status/1009906746620563458?s=17)
Gabor is often asked about his take on Jordan Peterson. Here’s a Twitter thread on the topic…
4/ Peterson no doubt genuinely means to empower young men (and perhaps women) with his “12 Rules for Living”. And indeed, responsibility and knowledge of self are positive and healthful qualities—but ONLY if accompanied by a fully explored emotional life.
5/ Sadly his message, like his health, is being compromised by a choked rage that distorts his world-view. Hence his appeal to those who, perceiving themselves as victimized by the culture & threatened by social change, seek comforting explanations for their anger and insecurity.
Smári McCarthy (@smarimc) tweeted at 6:55 AM on Sat, Apr 20, 2019:
The people who think Peterson had a point have spent too much time serially masturbating in their mancaves and need to go see the world. Nobody, at this point, thinks Žižek has a point. This is only due to Žižek having a head start.