gabor on toxic normal trauma
Healing Trauma in a Toxic Culture – with Dr. Gabor Maté | Know Thyself LIVE Podcast EP 33 – part 1 (part 2: gabor on true self)
gabor maté, myth of normal, et al
notes/quotes from 120 min video:
1 min – what underlies their connection is the only thing that is genetic.. and it’s sensitivity.. the good news.. healing is available.. it’s inside all of us
3 min – defn of trauma.. what it isn’t.. a word not used enough .. where it matters not used at all.. med school not single lecture on trauma.. not used in law.. when all the children of convicts are in trauma.. in schools.. et al.. all about trauma.. avg educator doesn’t get lecture about trauma.. on other hand.. we use word to loosely.. ie: traumatized by weather, movie, being stood up.. it isn’t stress, upset, pain.. it’s a wound you sustain which then shows up later in life.. unhealed.. in thinking.. relationships..
6 min – trauma is not the terrible things that happen to you.. it’s the wound you sustain inside..
7 min – you can wound young children 2 ways 1\ doing bad things to them (big t trauma) 2\ depriving them of their needs.. (small t trauma).. so trauma is a wound
10 min – small t trauma.. little things that when you ask people.. if people think they had happy childhood.. but have diseases.. i offer the 3 min challenge.. i ask questions
11 min – andré: the assumption we make about our human needs.. you share.. making assumption about human beings in a toxic culture is *like making assumptions about elephants in a zoo.. t far divorced form its natural origins..t if you could explain .. what are our **actual human needs and ***how does culture undermine them
**maté basic needs.. so.. let’s org around these 2 legit needs
12 min – if in lab put organisms in dish.. if grow properly.. nourishing culture.. if not .. toxic.. so how are organism suffering or thriving.. in this culture.. a lot of people suffering.. people achieving all successes society has to offer and being miserable.. that’s what makes it toxic for me
14 min – human being s have certain needs.. very diff than c system .. assumed they are selfish, greedy, competitive, aggressive, against other.. but if look from pov of human needs.. 95% of 200 000 yrs.. lived in close units.. collab was necessary
or not.. dawn of everything (book) et al.. two books
15 min – so our needs as defined by evolution are for community.. contact.. collab.. connection.. which translates into giving/receiving love/care.. children born with need to *1\ belong.. free from having to work to make relationship work.. shouldn’t have to be pretty smart.. **2\ just be.. no work to be accepted.. rest from having to work to belong ..to be able 3\ to experience all their emotions.. 4\ for free spontaneous play..
so.. *missing piece #2 and **missing piece #1
17 min – as adults we have the need for connection, belonging, meaning, purpose in our lives
ooh.. i don’t know.. i think you hit nail on head here: maté basic needs.. and when we started adding more.. we get distracted.. ie: purpose/meaning become cancerous distractions to authenticity and attachments..
18 min – on deaths of despair – over 100 000 of overdose.. response to loss of purpose is addiction..
or just loss of missing pieces.. khan filling the gaps law et al
20 min – joe rogan podcast in sept.. he’s gone thru quite a transformation.. more room to be vulnerable.. not to be hostile.. feels more like self.. tells me.. when do selfish, manip, aggressive.. then kind, tender, gentle.. when do you feel more at ease w self.. when does nervous system feel more at home w yourself.. tells you what the true nature is.. when do you feel more like yourself.. don’t have to go to spiritual teachings.. listen to lectures like this.. just look at yourself..
23 min – andre – forsake our true selves for sake of safety
24 min – that’s where child has to work for safety.. in book – ch on authenticity (need to be ourselves) vs attachment (need to belong.. holds two bodies together for sake of being taken care.. not negotiable).. on basic level.. why need to be self.. how to survive if not connected to gut feelings.. to our energy.. t
again.. missing pieces.. khan filling the gaps law et al
26 min – if ignore strong gut feeling.. that’s the story of your childhood.. baby never ignores gut feelings.. at some point got message that if you want to belong better give that up.. t
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
jordan peterson’s 12 rules for life.. he advises angry child sit by self till back to normal.. not normal for kid to be angry.. so kid gets that message and loses attachment.. kid gives up authenticity.. 100% of the time.. because can’t live w/o it.. then authenticity becomes a threat.. they won’t like me.. will abuse me (can’t run away or fight back.. have to push it down to survive).. culture rewards you for being ‘such a good, nice kid’.. we praise kids for pleasing us.. reward is attachment .. so we give ourselves up just to be accepted.. then 30-40-50.. who am i .. who’s life am i living..
31 min – my default setting is withdrawal.. there’s a reason for that in my early programming.. but when caught up in it unconscious of that.. ‘why am i behaving this way’ is not a question.. it’s an accusation..
35 min – parts most filled w hatred/addiction/self-loathing need to be held.. not an enemy
36 min – child has 2 choices.. world is bad.. i don’t fit.. parents don’t love me .. or .. it’s me.. if i work hard enough i can fit.. it’s not safe to have parents not love you.. parents defense: ‘just trying to make sure they behave so accepted by environ’
39 min – (how do two in same home grow up diff) no two children have same parents/family/set-of-experiences.. even in identical twins brought up by birth mother.. ie: mother worried .. had guilt.. about 2nd/smaller child.. they didn’t have same mother..
42 min – winnicot: ‘even if mother could be same for all.. they have diff temperaments.. so none the same’
what happened doesn’t matter so much (easy for me to figure that out.. to trace it.. but not crucial to know).. it’s what are you carrying now
43 min – andre: – jung ‘until you make unconscious conscious.. it will rule you and you will call it fate’ – so what is best way to make the unconscious conscious
perhaps wrong focus.. better (less of energy suck) to ie: imagine if we ness.. where (bad) unconscious ness is irrelevant as we are detoxed from it by not paying attention to it
gershenfeld something else law.. self and global
44 min: this may be the toughest question you’ve asked me so far.. because i don’t think there’s one simple answer.. not that difficult to make unconscious conscious.. st paul.. ‘shine light into darkness’.. there’s such a thing as light.. there’s light waves.. but there’s no darkness waves.. darkness is just the absence of light.. so once you shine light on something.. it becomes clear.. so there’s a whole lot of ways of shining light
again.. (to me) wrong/distracting focus..
rather .. we need to org around legit needs – aka: missing (light) pieces
45 min – meditation, body work, psychotherapy.. finding out.. way of taming danger by being charming.. gordon neufeld.. if not loved for who you are then you’ll become charming.. sometimes just takes a word ‘charming’ to help reveal
rather.. imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
47 min – andré: all those behaviors we think are altruistic.. are compensation for trauma.. nice ness et al
i don’t know any comedians that weren’t traumatized.. ie: typical ovarian cancer personality – suppressed own needs to please others.. make jokes to feel closer to mother (gilda radner, robin williams).. robin: ‘isn’t that a weird thing to try to make your mother laugh’.. no.. it’s an intelligent way.. to get close to mother.. then everybody celebrates them for talent.. but really celebrating defense of a helpless child
50 min – ie: hillary clinton – bullied as 4 yr old runs into house and mom ‘no room for cowards here’.. ie of character building parenting.. message.. no room for vulnerability in this house.. so.. don’t tell anyone about pneumonia et al.. learned to suck it up.. so when husband filandering around.. said it’s my fault.. i didn’t look after him.. that women go thru that in this culture is totally understandable.. that that is celebrated (as success – president et al) in public tv and nobody notices it.. that’s how toxic this culture is
maté parenting law.. wisdom of trauma – parenting.. nika & silvia on divorce et al
53 min – started q&a
54 min – there’s good news in this.. healing is available.. it’s inside all of us.. t
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature
ie: tech as it could be because it has to be all of us in sync
56 min – q: what could it look like for a society to be as healed as possible and bring the next generation into the world
imagine if we ness.. hari rat park law et al
when you say your petrified (of becoming parent).. you’re not petrified of the future.. you’re petrified of the past.. stuff happened (or didn’t happen) to you that shouldn’t have.. and that’s what you’re translating on your children.. let me ask.. how old were you when your mother/father took on the job of getting to know themselves.. so as not to pass on the traumas to you.. (i think they’re starting to now.. i’m 34) what would have meant for you if your mother would have asked that question before you were born (not being scared in my household) yeah.. it would have meant everything.. you’ve already given that gift to your unborn children.. you have nothing to worry about.. just keep doing it.. a therapist once said to me.. ‘if you give kids this much shit (arm’s length) and you give your kids this much (foot length) you’re doing a good job’
58 min – so start asking those questions now.. start working now.. read some books.. not that many but i could name some.. you’re going to be just fine
oi.. no prep.. no train man.. otherwise same song
one of things you’re going to have to do is get to trust own gut feelings and not take in message of the culture on what your kids need..
ok.. so i see how books help you see you’re not alone.. but.. hasn’t worked yet.. we need a legit nother way.. (wish we could talk gabor)
q: i work w public school system.. what would advice would you give..
60 min – i do get invited to speak to teachers.. i used to be a hs teach myself.. but decided way to stressful so went to med school.. so here’s my thing.. schools have it all wrong.. they’re in the wrong business.. they think they’re in the business of teaching kids skills/facts.. kids didn’t learn being in classes.. leaned thru being in nature/experience/play.. play is essential for healthy brain development.. average dr/teacher don’t get ed on how brain develops.. harvard article (2012): ‘1\ brain develops thru ongoing process begins before birth and into adulthood 2\ most important is interaction w/environ.. effect of experience on genes’.. that means schools should be involved in developing healthy brains.. not in .. not in teaching who won this or that battle in civil war.. or .. any other fact/skill.. but healthy brains.. since used to be case.. kids used to be w nurturing adults all day.. schools have to be places of nurturing.. emotional nurturing
better to get back to in the city.. village.. sans supposed to’s of school/work.. sans any form of m\a\p
62 min – most important input environ has on development of brain – the quality of relationship w nurturing adults.. the dopamine/serotonin/endorphin circuits.. these are the essential brain chemicals.. all shaped by interactions w the nurturing adults.. in other words.. the schools need to ask themselves.. what conditions do children need for healthy brain development and how can we provide them.. that question doesn’t even occur to them.. so that’s what i would say to them
again.. what we all should be asking about all of us..
graeber make it diff law.. hari rat park law.. et al
ie: a nother way
63 min – children who play.. who are naturally curious.. they’ll learn anything.. because they want to.. that’s their nature.. that’s 1st part of answer.. 2nd part is.. say ‘kid is acting out’ we imagine they are being disruptive/aggressive.. that’s not what acting out is.. it is portraying behavior you don’t have the language for.. they are acting out their emotional needs.. so job of school is that
cure ios city ness.. and our need to focus (listen to) on curiosity over decision making
65 min – q: (is adhd a super power that is just midunderhood)
book – scattered.. i suggest you read it.. about adhd.. i never bought into idea this was a disease.. the tuning out (adhd) what is it actually?.. why does nature give us the capacity to tune out.. if i would stress you right now you have healthy options 1\ walk out.. 2\ fight.. but if don’t have those options.. brain adapts by tuning out.. tuning out when brain is developing.. wired in.. so years later diagnosed with this disease.. it’s not a disease.. it’s a coping mech that early on served a purpose.. later on .. it didn’t..
68 min – now if anything is genetic we shouldn’t see it increase.. because genes don’t change in a population.. if all of a sudden in china having adhd and didn’t use to have it.. and more kids diagnosed with it..esp kids of poverty/color.. what a coincidence.. just most stressed people/kids.. yeah adhd is a response to stress.. learning difficulties are impact of stress.. not to fault of parent.. parents don’t choose living in stress.. that’s nature of this culture.. parents do their best.. not a question if they love their kids.. are they devoted.. sure they are.. question is how stressed they are..
69 min – so depressed mothers.. love their kids as much as any other.. but they can’t attune w their child as well as non depressed mother.. not their fault.. their brain won’t let them.. those kids develop adhd..
70 min – 2nd question.. is it superpower? hmm.. i don’t go there.. i could live w/o loosing things all the time.. w/o my room being a tornado aftermath.. w/o forgetting things all the time.. i don’t understood how having difficulty standing still makes you a great hunter.. now what is true.. a lot of people w adhd or bipolar or depression or addiction are very talented creatives.. but that’s not because of their condition.. but what underlies their condition.. and what underlies their condition is the only thing that’s genetic.. which is sensitivity.. the more sensitive you are.. the more spontaneous.. creative.. joyful.. when things go right.. but when things go wrong .. going to hurt more.. why comedians, actors, creative people have so much trouble.. culture didn’t support them
74 min – q: on anger .. quick fuses..
gordon’s book on parenting – main author of our book .. hold onto kids.. gordon in my mind is world’s most astute developmental psychologist.. and he says ‘frustration is the engine of aggression’.. so that person who erupts .. is deeply frustrated.. when are we frustrated? when needs not met.. so the angry adult was a frustrated child whose needs were not met.. and probably didn’t have freedom to express anger as children.. so had to suppress it.. at some point blows it top.. hasn’t learned how to express healthy anger..
hold on to kids.. gordon neufeld
76 min – perfectly healthy for child to be angry.. as we mature.. we learn to regulate our emotions.. ie: if notice anger arising we notice it.. person you’re describing never notices it.. it arises until they can’t control it.. blows their top.. so something happened to them that made them very frustrated.. and something happened to them that doesn’t allow them to control their emotions.. my concern would be that .. and this may not be the case at all.. but if in relationship w people like that.. it’s not your job to look after them.. your job is to look after yourself.. not that it doesn’t matter.. sometimes in this society.. esp women.. take on a role of understanding partners at risk of ignoring own needs.. one thing to understand it.. the trouble is most people like this don’t ask for help
interpretive labor et al
78 min – q: on psych meds.. makes them hard to access own inner experience.. so hard to heal..
they’re overused.. avg psychiatrist has no training in trauma, brain development, relationships and childhood needs.. what they see is you have a brain disease.. let’s give you biological agents to balance your brain.. so if depression.. lacking serotonin.. give med to increase that.. do you know how much proof there is for sci theory of lack of serotonin in depression.. zero.. it’s like asking.. is your anxiety caused by lack of whiskey in your brain.. so they prescribe far too quickly.. far too often.. and for far too long
josh ovalle et al
80 min – so if going to use them.. say someone is stuck in mud.. lift one foot other sinks deeper.. properly used psych med can get you on dry land.. when on dry land not there.. but at least you can walk.. gets stabilized.. problem is that’s where it ends in hands of most physicians.. now.. do they always work? no.. can they make side effects? yes.. make people numb.. well you can deal with that.. but if only aim is to get rid of symptom.. not causes.. (healing) never happens
84 min – on ‘free diving not only a sport.. a way to understand who you are.. we need to reset sometime.. free diving does that’ she died doing it.. nothing wrong with doing crazy/hard work to reset.. only question is are you taking risks that will hurt you
86 min – if running to run away from selves.. then yeah.. but not what i’m hearing here.. sounds like running gets you closer to self
87 min – q: what allows a person to be open minded vs another
when working w people you see as not open minded.. what happens for you .. how do you feel (i get frustrated).. if i was in dialogue w you.. but i got frustrated.. would you sense that.. how would you feel.. (would shut down).. so.. whose mind is not open.. this is not to make you wrong.. but make you aware.. when was first time in your life was it frustrating for you that somebody important just didn’t get it.. got nothing to do w/that client.. you work on that.. you’ll meet many more open minded people all of a sudden..
90 min – intros larry – (who he works with) – want to talk about how hardest work is on you .. not the client
larry: on importance of parent being attuned to child.. that’s important in therapy too.. to attune to clients inner world.. only way we can do that is if we’re in connection to our own inner world
72 min – q: how much do you think disconnection from self and from play as part of depression and anxiety
depression is a pushing down.. in order to belong.. child pushes down emotions.. that’s what depression is.. anxiety.. a thing in our brains for fear.. but lack of safety.. isn’t just absence of threat.. also presence of connection.. so when infant left by self.. going to be afraid.. and should be.. and start crying.. and that should bring parents running.. indigenous never put kids down.. we’re told not to.. that’s a lab for raising anxious babies.. sleep train them.. don’t pick them up.. so that natural becomes chronic and now you have anxiety.. nothing wrong with the fear.. but if the fear is not responded to it becomes anxiety.. so both anxiety and depression have their sources in very simple dynamics.. but they become overwhelming states.. (both are disconnections from play and self et al)
perry sleep alone law et al
86 min – q: how do you define self actualization
being in touch w true self and being able to manifest that in the world..
98 min – in dream.. parts of brain that hold childhood memory get alivened and conscious brain goes to sleep.. i’m not afraid because nazis are chasing me.. nazis are chasing me because i’m afraid
100 min – usually most effective question.. what’s happening for you right now.. so not theoretically and so not narrative.. that so me is the most important question
101 min – do you have capacity to be aware of anxiety et al.. if do.. if you have capacity to be aware of anxiety.. then be with it.. learn from it.. rain method: recognize; allow (w/o coping); investigate (what does it feel like in my body.. allow it); nurture .. hang out with the emotion.. rain it.. then the insights will come
104 – trauma is always multi generational.. ie: my kids grew up w father who went thru nazi ness (but they didn’t) so.. work a holic father where kids get neglected.. always multi generational.. can see it in indigenous colonies.. hardly ever about the individual.. healing can’t just be an individual thing
yeah that.. for (blank)’s sake
115 min – most people i know have some of that (‘so called’ diagnoses) and in this toxic culture that’s what you would expect.. diagnoses don’t explain anything.. they describe something.. useful as long as we don’t confuse description w explanation.. explanations have to do w person’s life in certain culture.. and the so called abnormalities are actually normal responses to an abnormal situation.. so borderline neurosis.. is a normal response of human being who when young couldn’t trust anyone.. so they tend not to trust, withdraw et al .. if got rid of this idea of pathology and recognized 1\ just how ubiquitous is all this.. how we all share it and why wouldn’t we living in this culture.. and 2\ the diagnosis are helpful descriptions but not explanations.. we talk about somebody on the spectrum.. but who the hell isn’t on the spectrum.. life is a spectrum.. we’re all on the spectrum of something or another.. so i’m not so keen on using word neurosis.. i just see people responding to *life.. t
and *life in sea world
myth of normal
120 min – story about robin williams in good will hunting.. ‘it’s not your fault’ and damon collapses into tears.. if there’s one message it’s ‘it’s not your fault’.. stop the blaming of others and self.. it’s just how it is when society is functioning in a certain way.. t
hari rat park law.. for (blank)’s sake
there’s a nother way