derrick on bright green lies – 1
(2021) interview – Bright Green Lies ~ Derrick Jensen, Lierre Keith @lierrekeith, Max Wilbert @MaxWilbert – host: ross mckeachie @RossMcKeachie – [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEOjZgWoQAc]:
one of ? videos from derrick on bright green lies [derrick jensen on bright green lies]
[intro’d while reading derrick jensen letters.. emailed him and he suggested i read bright green lies (while waiting for book from library – taking in these video interviews – derrick on bright green lies) and myth of human supremacy]
notes/quotes from 85 min interview:
“Derrick Jensen is a rare and original voice of sanity in a chaotic world. ” ―Howard ZinnDerrick Jensen is an American author, ecophilosopher and radical environmentalist living in Crescent City, California. Democracy Now! has described him as the “poet-philosopher of the ecological movement.” He is the author of more than 25 acclaimed books, including A Language Older Than Words, The Culture of Make Believe, and Endgame. Lierre Keith is a writer, small farmer, and radical feminist activist. She is the author of six books, including The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability, which has been called “the most important ecological book of this generation.” She is also coauthor of Deep Green Resistance: Strategy to Save the Planet. Max Wilbert is an author, organizer, and wilderness guide. A third-generation dissident, Max has been part of grassroots political work for nearly 20 years. Max serves on the Board of Directors of Deep Green Resistance and Fertile Ground Institute for Social and Ecological Justice.
3 min – max in trailer for doc bright green lies ‘this shit ain’t green’
ross reading chris hedges quote about book: ‘exposes hypocrisy/bankruptcy of leading environ groups and most prominent cheerleaders.. not in business of speaking truth or rational solutions.. self serving delusions.. comfort at expense of reality..’
7 min – derrick: the film is extraordinary.. struggling against the behemoth.. amazon.. commit to buying book/month from local book store.. we need to support independent book stores to support independent thought.. horrifying that one large corp has so much control over book discourse (60-80%)
9 min – ross: first thing to do.. defining the problem.. what are the bright green lies
lierre @lierrekeith: modern environ movement started w rachel carson.. so 50 yrs.. point was for living creatures we love.. goal was to protect them.. that all changed.. maybe in 80s.. by people who ‘recking climate w fossil fuel’.. true.. their goal has taken over now.. but.. completely at odds w saving planet.. turn living beings to commodities to private wealth.. movement has been devastated by these.. this shift in values.. we want to call people back to our original goal.. do you really want to save this planet.. or do you just want to save this way of life.. t
12 min – max @MaxWilbert: really important that everyone recognize that climate change is a symptom.. so much of environ movement focus on climate change as the problem.. if look in that way.. easy to get into.. solving global warming and in so doing protecting industrial culture.. this way of life..t global warming is a symptom of a much deeper problem.. same true across the board.. global warming is playing a huge role.. but bulk of damage to planet has been done w/o global warming playing big role.. so if only focus on global warming.. literally ignoring the vast bulk of the harm being done to this planet.. that is what has happened to our movement.. now instead focused on preserving that glutinous energy usage and that consumptive way of life.. t
true.. in all the ways.. what the world needs most is the energy of 8b alive people
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature ie: tech as it could be
ross @RossMcKeachie: so solving for the wrong variable..t
yeah that.. huge.. taleb center of problem law et al
we need a problem deep enough to resonate w/8bn today.. a mechanism simple enough to be accessible/usable to 8bn today.. and an ecosystem open enough to set/keep 8bn legit free
ie: org around a problem deep enough (aka: org around legit needs) to resonate w/8bn today.. via a mechanism simple enough (aka: tech as it could be) to be accessible/usable to 8bn today.. and an ecosystem open enough (aka: sans any form of m\a\p) to set/keep 8bn legit free
thinking restate/update 7.18.. and 2\ short findings restate in 2019
1\ undisturbed ecosystem (common\ing) can happen
2\ if we create a way to ground the chaos of 8b legit free people
15 min – derrick: 2 of lies that undergird everything in book wind/solar/etc 1\ good for planet 2\ can actually do what they say.. power econ.. both of those not accurate..t
16 min – lierre: these techs are as destructive as the burning of fossil fuel.. some dramatically worse.. yet held up as solution.. so even if don’t want to defend planet.. just want to use these energy sources.. they are worse.. that’s what we want people to really understand the math involved.. because the whole thing is a lie.. and then on top of that.. they don’t even scale up.. so it can’t be done.. so on every single level we are being sold a bill of goods that’s never going to come thru..t
to me..only math deep enough: sans any form of m\a\p..
literacy and numeracy both elements of colonialism/control/enclosure.. we need to calculate differently and stop measuring things
infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness
ross: what you guys are saying.. econ argument (ie: better to go green) doesn’t even matter.. what matters is saving planet
17 min – max – into biomass.. and math/sci ness of it all.. and what is worse et al
to me this is still cancerous distraction ness
19 min – max: planet has own rules.. et al
timing of peter gelderloos tweet: [https://twitter.com/PeterGelderloos/status/1670103130992701445?s=20].. with this disclaimer [https://twitter.com/PeterGelderloos/status/1670103523671810054?s=20]
22 min – derrick: part of the problem is we pretend our accounting systems are more important than what happens in reality.. which is pretty much the entire culture in a nut shell.. t
huge.. and why need a way sans any form of m\a\p (aka: need to get out of sea world – hari rat park law et al)
24 min – derrick: a huge coup.. to get environmentalists to support/cheerlead industrialist projects.. that’s how bad it’s gone
wilde not-us law.. hari rat park law
26 min – max: *these things are worse because they have allowed the large portions of environ movement to be co opted into fighting on the side of industrialism..t.. **(then goes on to talk about the science of which is better).. incredibly harmful because they lead us astray.. prevent us from talking about the root of these issues.. t
to me.. all of that (* and **).. whalespeak.. all the cancerous distractions (included is all the talking and fighting..
need most – the energy of 8b alive people
so.. humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..
need means for global detox/re\set
30 min – ross: why are we so easily diverted.. how do we begin to get people’s hearts/minds on right track and asking right questions about these tech solutions.. t
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature ie: tech as it could be
31 min – lierre: i think we need to talk about lewis mumford and the magnificent bribe.. foremost theorist who explained the nature of civ and tech and how cultures create a whole suite of ideology .. social forms.. and tech.. all of that together is called a technic.. his claim was that technics are either authoritarian or *democratic..t and when you look at all these green techs.. **they are as authoritarian as you can get
*deeper problem we’re missing.. any form of democratic admin.. also authoritarian.. aka: people telling other people what to do.. need a way sans any form of m\a\p
**degree matters little
33 min – lierre: *so this is what these techs are based on .. going to have to have a hierarchical world.. and reason we don’t see it is because we live behind the military barricade.. us who live in the wealthy countries.. we don’t see the damage..t **this was mumford’s point (in 60s).. that it was a big bribe.. that if we give over our souls/freedoms.. given in exchange a bunch of material comforts.. so this is the bribe.. in exchange for pretending we don’t know.. organizing our own ignorance so we don’t have to know..
*need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
**way out.. ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
34 min – derrick: sinclair ‘it’s hard to make a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it’ .. and i would extend that to.. hard to make people understand something when their *entitlement depends on them not understanding it.. t.. i mean it’s pretty clear.. et al
sinclair perpetuation law: it’s difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it – upton sinclair
jensen entitlement law
35 min – derrick: one of things we do in book is simply fall back chains of supply..t
need more/1st: for us to grok/org around legit needs.. otherwise will keep spinning those wheels in all the (cancerous) degrees/flavors
derrick: one ie.. several yrs ago interviewed by someone who was a dedicated marxists who believed it was possible to have entire industrial *econ system based on purely voluntary exchanges.. in which no one was exploited.. and i said.. great.. do you have a city.. he said yeah.. we have cities.. people live in cities.. i said.. how do you get around your cities.. he said in a bus.. i said.. what’s bus made of.. metal from mines.. how to get people to work in mines.. because one of first forms of slavery.. he said.. you pay them a whole lot.. i said.. well i’ll give you that.. but what do you do about fact that every hard rock mine pollutes rivers.. et al.. so pay people to move from river.. et al (guys incentive/solution was always money).. he said million people who live in city vote and 500 who live by river have to leave.. i say.. so what you’ve done is gone from purely voluntary exchanges where nobody is exploited to democratic empire, land theft from indigenous people, and genocide.. all so you can have a bus
*have seen/heard it via bachelard oikos law (findings abstract et al) but need detox first.. in sync.. otherwise.. perpetuating myth of tragedy and lord (and so people assuming.. can’t have purely voluntary exchanges et al)
37 min – derrick: one point is.. he didn’t get it.. another point.. this all (convo) took place in less than a minute.. that’s an ie of what mumford meant by an authoritarian technic.. if going to have materials made out of metal.. you have to have mines.. in order to have mines have to have a military to take the land.. have to have police force to protect the ore.. have to have a transportation system to move the ore.. you can’t take some item.. like this microphone.. out of context.. microphone requires entire infra.. look around right now.. all inside.. take any item.. ie: little bench.. ask.. how many trucks involved in getting it to your house.. we don’t think about these things but we should.. they don’t just suddenly appear.. another reason bright green’s ideas won’t work.. incredibly density..
40 min – derrick: we think so clever when make lithium battery that stores 1 megajule/kg.. but nature made this thing called fat.. 27 megajules/kg.. carbos 17.. so cracks me up when so excited when make something that has less 1/3 storage capacity than a potato.. t
totally.. i think we have no idea 1\ what planet/all-of-us (if legit free) are capable of and 2\ what legit human needs are.. to me.. so intoxicated from that.. need nonjudgmental expo labeling.. to detox us back to ie: graeber stop at enough law.. so we can dance the dance
derrick: how to get people to resist.. a lot is nimby.. generally a dirty word.. but i think it’s a huge start..
to me.. as if already free ness isn’t deep enough..
rather.. imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
derrick: this entire talk.. this was intentional (mic keeps delaying when people change).. we’re doing a performance art piece about the relationship between humans and tech.. (all laugh)
42 min – lierre: if we don’t have trees, grasses, animals.. we can’t do any fo this.. we don’t do any of it.. i don’t know what people think they are going to breathe
44 min – max: when you other people and make them non human .. then so much easier to exploit them.. that’s what this culture relies on.. this isn’t green .. this isn’t anything different.. this is the exact same story of resource extraction and colonialism that has ruined the world.. t
thurman interconnectedness law: when you understand interconnectedness it makes you more afraid of hating than of dying – Robert Thurman
derrick: one of greatest concepts anybody ever taught me was robert j lifton wrote the nazi drs and many other books.. he argues that before you can commit an mass atrocity.. have to convince self/others that what you’re doing is not in fact atrocious but instead beneficial.. called a claim to virtue.. so really about magnificent ability for humans to rationalize their own behavior..
51 min – lierre: if don’t id correct problem.. never going to find right solution.. we are solving for the wrong variable.. t
we need a problem deep enough to resonate w/8bn today.. a mechanism simple enough to be accessible/usable to 8bn today.. and an ecosystem open enough to set/keep 8bn legit free
ie: org around a problem deep enough (aka: org around legit needs) to resonate w/8bn today..
all else.. same song.. cancerous distractions..
max: on bill mckibben wanting to bribe people so won’t fight back against destruction of land.. horrible.. somebody who’d considered thee preeminent leader.. he’s saying we need industrial development.. that’s the bright green lie in action
54 min – lierre: you can’t bribe the wild cats..
55 min – ross: how to
derrick: fan of joe hill’s line.. *’don’t mourn .. org‘.. one reason i’ve written so man books.. when feel overwhelmed by grief.. when i start to worry about all my own feelings about all the destruction i see around us.. .. i recognize i can turn away .. wildcats.. tortoises **don’t have that option.. a line somebody said to bob marley.. who was a hard worker.. ‘why don’t you just take days off..’ he said.. ‘because other side don’t take days off’.. industrial way.. my response to that.. feel it.. ***feel the sorrow/rage.. then move forward with them.. a lot of people will spend more energy to not feel.. than to feel and move on.. because afraid if feel.. sorrow won’t stop.. and it’s true.. it’s a coal/ember burning inside that never goes away.. but at same time.. learn you can feel it and it doesn’t’ kill you.. can still sing and make love and fight like hell..
*need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can detox enough to org around legit needs
**as many humans don’t.. derrick on imagine a turtle.. huge
***norton productivity law et al
59 min – derrick: another thing happens when allow self to feel that pain.. it does kill you.. wonderful thing about being dead.. once you’re dead they can’t touch you anymore.. because the you that dies is the you that id’s w the system more than w the planet.. that you does need to die so you can .. indigenous.. have said to me.. first thing we have to do is decolonize hearts/minds..t to me one of most important .. switching of loyalties..
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us for global detox/re\set
derrick: one of my fav lines in the book and one we refer to often.. is naomi klein says in this changes everything film.. that polar bears don’t do it for her.. and that’s fine.. but that’s the problem right there.. what we need to do is take our loyalty away from the system.. because when people ask.. how can we stop global worming.. what really asking.. how can we stop global warming w/o stopping industrial civ.. and the answer is .. you can’t.. so we do need to give up on .. t
1:00- derrick: all my work.. all these 20 some books can be summed up in one sentence.. which is .. this way of life won’t last forever and when it’s done i would prefer that more of the world is left than less.. once you stop the fantasy that you can have it all.. once that fantasy is driven from your body.. things become much much much more clearer.. t
1:01 – lierre: need people around you who can understand the nature of the problem .. find people who will do this with you.. i don’t think anyone can do it alone
1:02 – derrick: a book in my late 20s saved my sanity/life.. 1st book that took value non human life for own sake as opposed to value for econ.. i remember thinking.. i’m not crazy.. the culture is crazy..
grammatis broken law et al
crazywise (doc) et al
1:04 – max: i feel grief really heavy at times.. seeps you away sometimes.. lost in a storm at night.. that grief is yours.. a sacred things.. you grieve for what you love.. that is a true gift.. not something to be afraid of .. run away from.. but to embrace.. if world view based on destruction.. you are lacking most basic/strongest force/things in human experience.. that force can motivate people to do extraordinary things.. strongest force is that love.. a power that will not abandon us
1:07 – q&a
1:15 – max: they say we live in democracy.. rep system.. but most people don’t feel they have a say in the day to day decisions..
much deeper.. decision making is unmooring us law.. et al.. need curiosity over decision making et al
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jensen one question law.. jensen import law.. jensen civilization law.. jensen fittingness law.. jensen living beings law.. jensen entitlement law.. myth of human supremacy.. bright green lies.. derrick on bright green lies.. derrick on imagine a turtle..
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be you. 