mitra self org system law
no one teaching..not even selves..order appearing out of nowhere..emergent phenom in self-org system – sugata mitra
for this dance to dance.. need a means sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
via tweet quote [https://x.com/Sugatam/status/1886659627431157825]:
“No one is teaching them, not even themselves. It’s order appearing out of nowhere. Learning is an emergent phenomenon in a self-organizing system.” – Sugata Mitra
In our latest episode, Sugata Mitra talks about how learning emerges naturally when conditions allow for self-organization rather than being imposed or directed.
the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
‘in undisturbed ecosystem ..the avg individual.. left to its own devices.. behaves in ways that serve/stabilize the whole’ –dana meadows
need to try a sabbatical ish transition
aka: conditions for self org to dance.. conditions for legit freedom
[i listened to podcast.. notes below.. and to me.. sugata is still describing people telling other people what to do.. just more obscurely.. i love his point above – on how there needs to be no direction.. but we can’t seem to let go of ‘some direction’]
______
notes/quotes from 1 hour video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKJYohpSj3g]:
105: Sugata Mitra | How Learning Emerges Naturally Through Self-Organizing Systems
4 min – what i bumped into in those experiments 25 yrs ago is what i believe is a self org system.. but people would describe it as self directed or self org’d and i would say no.. we’re looking at something different..
18 min – they said.. ‘this is self directed learning’.. self directed means there’s a self doing the direction.. but i couldn’t find any such self in that.. so where was the direction coming from.. i thought.. this is not self directed.. this is self org’d..
but.. even in your experiments.. there was direction.. ie: a raised eyebrow of people watching; expectations of spaces we have.. ie: schools, even hole in the walls.. et al
19 min – self directed: ie: doing dishes.. self org’d: friends show up and see you need them done so they do them.. not directed by anyone but org’d..
20 min – but again i got it wrong.. in another experiment.. i told kids ‘something interesting called dna’.. month later.. they ”.. that wasn’t self org’d.. how could kids org to learn dna.. where is this learning form?.. i got the answer 4 yrs later.. 2004.. my own ed is in theoretical physics.. there was a fringe (not fringe any longer) called self org systems.. trying to understand creation.. who made it all.. the answer physicists gave: nobody.. it happened by itself.. look into it.. find that nature is full of that
23 min – ie: bees building beehive.. made up of hexagons.. do bees know what a hexagon is.. i don’t think so.. do they know they’re building a beehive.. i would guess they don’t.. just following instincts.. so how do we get the perfect beehive.. physics.. it’s a self org system..
24 min – when things are connected to each other (each bee can see what other bee is doing) and therefore change its actions accordingly.. the system itself orgs
25 min – ie: ants.. marching in perfect straight line.. who taught them to do that.. each ant follows back side of ant in front.. when 1000 ants do that.. makes a line.. ants didn’t self direct or self org.. the system itself was a self org system.. line of ants wasn’t created by the ants.. it was a property of that systemic rule: follow the one in front
oi.. follow ness isn’t the dance.. ie: maté trump law.. brown belonging law.. et al.. that would mean someone was in the front of the line.. aka: a leader/director..
to me.. legit self org system.. aka: undisturbed ecosystem.. means each individual is listening to what is already on their heart .. we need that individual listening/rhythm.. to get the legit dance together..
which for humans.. means we need a global detox leap.. via a means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
26 min – other ie’s .. birds, fish, .. marvelous patterns.. they didn’t do it.. something else did.. question isn’t who was it done by.. but what was it done by
32 min – section on ed transform and self org.. ie: give 24 kids 6 computers.. move back and sit down.. first they won’t do anything.. they’ll think it’s a trick.. then they break into groups.. they have to form group.. then in about 40 min .. self org happens.. they learn.. they learn something .. it *depends on the question you asked.. if ask right question get what you wanted.. otherwise **they learn in any case
not free enough.. to get to the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. ie: *so you are directing them.. oi.. even just the raised eyebrow ness.. the **accountable ness.. ie: you saying ‘they learned something’.. why do we have to go there.. i think that would be irrelevant to legit free people.. and it’s an obstacle for kids.. any of us.. now.. those expectations ..
expectations for alive unpredictable (graeber unpredictability/surprise law) people is a cancerous distraction
34 min – so self org system are diff from self directed and self org’d..
38 min – (guy): peter grapy on free play.. the self org system inside the free play
peter gray – free to learn.. gray play law et al
peter and i worked together recently.. and i heard him ‘we sent kids to school to be disciplined’.. i thought he didn’t say anything bad about ed.. just what it does.. (then ie’s are all about obedience).. it’s not what you’re doing it’s whether you’re following the instruction.. peter likes my work.. both of us decided there are a couple of things we don’t know.. *want your children to know stuff.. but if i ask .. what does knowing mean.. we don’t have a defn.. so what do you want..
40 min – people say.. everybody knows what knowing means.. then came along generated ai.. 2022.. and people started asking me about it.. took only a few days to figure out how it works.. via an engineering we’ve never seen before.. in engineering know what machine does and how it does it.. in gen ai we know what it does but don’t know how.. and worse than that.. we cannot know how it works..
42 min – i know how to build one.. i can build it.. but no way to figure out why it’s saying what it’s saying.. it reminds me of a saying of stephen hawking.. ‘a creator that watches helplessly as his creation unfolds’.. watches helplessly.. not funny at all.. gen ai works like that
usefully ignorant..usefully preoccupied.. but not via gen ai.. via alive things.. graeber unpredictability/surprise law.. et al
garden-enough ness
43 min – [when he explains gen ai.. he’s not describing creation via gen ai.. ie: describes in via math et al.. so.. not unpredictable ness.. not self or system.. et al]
of math and men ness.. we need a global detox leap
50 min – what to do with children.. in a world where knowing is obsolete.. we’re so proud of knowing stuff.. but is that relevant today.. when have gen machines that let you know anything you want at time you need to know it
oi.. the dance isn’t about knowing ness..
intellectness as cancerous distraction
51 min – why do we have to know things if can find it in 2 min.. i have 2 suggestions: 1\ if question to which there is an answer.. ai knows it always.. so should i ask a question to you which answer is already known? better.. ask question where no one knows answer.. i have to figure it out for myself or give up.. so *pt 1 – focus on question w no answers yet
*oi.. that is an ie of people telling other people what to do.. why do you need to give them a question.. won’t get to itch-in-the-soul that way.. we have no idea what legit people are like.. black science of people/whales law et al
53 min – 2\ what else can gen ai not do: can’t deal w nonsense.. children love nonsense.. so *pt 2 – value of nonsense
*again.. ie of people telling other people what to do.. ie: who’s deciding what nonsense is.. and why place value on anything.. graeber values law et al.. just a sign of measuring things
maté not yet scrambled law et al
56 min – (guy): how to org onwards.. reclaim living in org systems
i talk about why we’ve made ourselves the way we are right now.. agri had a lot to do w it.. w formed cities/societies.. we decided we need order.. to get order .. need a social hierarchy
that’s been since forever.. even with your ants description ie.. the order of their line
59 min – we see nature.. and that’s the way everything works.. so why oppose it with a mechanistic culture.. if talking is a way of self org ing.. why do we want to be alone.. i don’t know who has that answer.. i think we have to ask the ghost of freud
we need to be alone.. bachelard oikos law et al.. part of the dance
again.. brown belonging law and maté trump law et al
1:01 – is there a way to go back to hunter gather.. we don’t pull out books and read we hunter gather.. and we have means to do it in every pocket.. what would society look like formatted like that.. what if nothing belongs to anybody.. have to ask the 5 yr olds..
oi.. to go back to hunter gatherer ness.. need garden-enough ness.. need hari rat park law et al
we haven’t yet gotten to the root of problem
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
[‘in an undisturbed ecosystem ..the individual left to its own devices.. serves the whole’ dana meadows]
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. the unconditional part of left-to-own-devices ness.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
_____
______
_____
_______
be you. 