arthur: we need to build some healthier patterns
eric: the primary thing we’re trying to create w holochain is a uncloseable carrier for doing communication interaction
jean: why do we want a decentralized internet..? because we want agency, autonomy, security.. those 3 things are really important and we’re losing that today
arthur: blockchain.. is also burning the planet.. and repeating all these things they were claiming to fix.. but the claims.. the goals were good
maybe.. i’m thinking not deep enough.. if we want healthy planet.. healthy people.. we need to disengage from measuring transactions..
arthur: holochain.. for solving similar problems.. but w/o bottlenecks.. et al
what if the bottlenecks aren’t the problem.. what if the problem is.. we’re trying to solve the wrong problem..
ie: not about security.. about antifragility..
jean: holo is a bridge to mainstream audience.. so everybody can participate in the new internet
arthur: you get paid for providing the hosting services
eric: you get these applications that are human centric as opposed to money centric.. which is what i think they are right now
what you’re proposing sounds like a nicer (than blockchain) nicer (than bitcoin) nicer .. version of the same thing.. ie: people wanting change.. but not going deep enough.. not letting go enough to say.. good bye cycle..
arthur: hold things together.. make sure everyone is following the rules.. to have an immune system ..to *kick out bad actors.. natural systems the way our body does this w **cells.. i think it’s going to be a ***bigger game changer than we can imagine
dang.. you guys are so lovely.. i wish we could talk
adding page this day
Arthur talking to Jon on fb
Some low-hanging fruit is using blockchain for transparency (with privacy) for election accountability. It would be an improvement. Everyone could confirm their own votes showed up and were counted properly. But it would take other levels of controls to ensure no Sybil votes.
But I think you’re reaching for something more that I don’t think the architecture of blockchain is appropriate for, and it is the reason we’ve designed Holochain so differently.
I can’t help but think that at the core of blockchain governance is the integrated and explicit ability to govern blockchain code and protocols of the themselves. Blockchain should certainly not be used as a source of governing things outside itself, until it can govern itself. As we delegate more powers to to decentralized architectures like blockchain, it becomes a centralized point of control until clear governance of its own code and protocols is in place. To claim we’ve built a decentralized system (simply because there isn’t one central ledger for accounting) while the code and protocols are largely controlled by a small handful of people is to lie to ourselves.
But the truth is, if every smart contract and distributed app runs in a big monolithic blockchain, as they do in Ethereum for example, how can you expect to create the social coherence across all groups of users for all purposes (e.g. people wanting ETH to just be a store of value currency, or wanting Ethereum to power small smart contracts or full-scale dApps, which it can’t really because of per gas limits and the costs of gas being so high because of the people that want it to be a store of value currency….).
In Holochain every app runs on its own holochain and can integrate its own governance. An app embodies all the protocols, structures, and agreements for how individuals can participate in the shared space of that app (which could be a currency, or a commons, or a voting system, or a platform cooperative, or a web site). There’s no Class Segregation of miners and clients because it is designed to be fully P2P without any energy waste on mining. We haven’t finished building the governance mixins for apps, but soon we’ll have the ability for each app to specify how it “officially” accepts new version updates of itself, which is where the governance comes in and how it is made explicit.
That’s probably enough blather for the moment. But again, I would stress that you shouldn’t trust something to govern something else, if you don’t know it is governed, because you’ve just handed control over to invisible puppet-masters when you do.
perhaps first time i heard of it..? i don’t know..
Matthew Schutte here:
fb live – why is blockchain diff than holochain
holochain: distributed storage system
in our mind.. bitcoin/ethereum.. make use of distributed computing networks.. but not distributed computing system.. a centralized system that makes use of distributed network.. subscribing to master ness for what happened in past.. specific subjective perspective of history.. et al.. ie: bitcoin has mining.. ledger as list of history.. ie: bitcoin really interested on who’s holding on to these coins..
we’re trying to solve a diff problem.. we do have some currency stuff.. but desire to enable communities to steer selves better.. to be able to form/change/disband… in fluid ways..
blockchain.. have to be aware of everything.. in order to trust
not getting rid of trust.. switching it..
try to get to what is true.. but generating truth is really costly… nature demos that cheap enough kicks crap out of true.. ie: if you and i in a room and you are paying attention to everything going on.. you can witness the truth.. and i pay attention to one thing.. i got to eat and you did not.. one of us likely to survive..
rather than good enough.. what i mean is.. that a subset of info that is the appropriate info is more useful than all of info
spot on to self-talk as data
14 min – what we’re trying to do is enable an individual and community they’re wanting to interact with to be able to coord activities by what they care about.. don’t have to pay attention to everyone.. only have to pay attention to my activity..
talking with twain liu (https://www.startupgrind.com/u/m9483b/)
story about people grokking what matters
blockchains are one size fits all
enables us to not hold onto everything.. but most importantly allows us to evolve.. to search for better solutions..
23 min – realized need to break ceptr into smaller parts.. learning how to play this way .. bigger user base.. before build whole system… then developed holochain.. we’ve got 3 pieces… carved off larger project.. we’re trying to ship this year…
3 parts: storage.. protocol.. processing
ceptr on holochain
go beyond blockchain bottlenecks and global census ledgers
Holochains are ideal for:
- Social Networks, Social Media & VRM: You want to run a social network without a company like Facebook in the middle. You want to share, post, publish, or tweet to shared space, while automatically keeping a copy of these things on your own device.
- Supply Chains & Open Value Networks: You want to have information that crosses the boundaries of companies, organizations, countries, which is collaboratively shared and managed, but not under the central control of any one of those organizations.
- Cooperatives and New Commons: You want to create something which is truly held collectively and not by any particular individual. This is especially good for digital assets.
- P2P Platforms: Peer-to-Peer applications where every person has similar capabilities, access, responsibilities, and value is produced collectively.
- Collective Intelligence: Governance, decision-making frameworks, feedback systems, ratings, currencies, annotations, or work flow systems.
- Collaborative Applications: Chats, Discussion Boards, Scheduling Apps, Wikis, Documentation, etc.
- Reputational, or Mutual Credit Cryptocurrencies: Currencies where issuance can be accounted for by actions of peers (like ratings), or through double-entry accounting are well-suited for holochains. Fiat currencies where tokens are thought to exist independent of accountability by agents are more challenging to implement on holochains
When NOT to Use Holochain
You probably SHOULD NOT use holochain for:
- Just for yourself: You generally don’t need distributed tools to just run something for yourself. The exception would be if you want to run a holochain to synchronize certain data across a bunch of your devices (phone, laptop, desktop, cloud server, etc.)
- Anonymous / Secret / Private data: Not only do we need to do a security audit of our encryption and permissions, but you’re publishing to a shared DHT space, so unless you really know what you’re doing, you should not assume data is private. Some time in the future, people will certainly add some applications to provide anonymization layers (similar to TOR), but that is not native to holochain.
- Large files: Think of holochains more like a database for structured data storage than a file system for storing music and videos. Nobody wants to be forced to load and host your big files on their devices just because they’re in the neighborhood of its hash. Use something like IPFS if you’re looking for a decentralized file system.
- Data positivist-oriented apps: If you have built all of your application logic around the idea that data exists as an absolute truth, not as an assertion by an agent at a time, then you would need to rethink your whole approach before putting it in a Holochain app. This is why most existing cryptocurrencies would need significant refactoring to move from blockchain to holochain, since they are organized around managing the existence of cryptographic tokens.
Holochain is a part of a much larger vision for distributed computing to enable quantum leaps in our collective intelligence and abilities for groups to organize themselves on all scales. You can find out more about Ceptr here.
holo on holochain
What if no one stood between you and your data or dictated how you connect with friends, family, and community? Holo is a peer-to-peer network for hosting web applications. This creates a “cloud” run — and owned — by users like you and me.
Apps available on Holo are built on Holochain, an alternative to blockchain technology that is 1) massively faster, 2) more energy efficient, 3) more scalable, and 4) ten thousand times cheaper!
Host people’s data on Holo and get paid in our cryptocurrency, Holo fuel. Holo fuel can be used to pay hosts for data storage and processing. Plus, it makes in-app purchases and micro payments easy.
Join Holo. Serve the World. Earn crypto.
at davos – Is Holochain Better than Blockchain? | Interview (4 min) with Matthew Schutte
we are an alt to blockchain.. we built a diff infra for running truly p2p.. no mining.. no cryptocurrency.. no business model.. so anyone can use it
a solution that doesn’t make use of consensus.. to enable communities to enable ways it works for them.. and when it stops working for any of them.. they can start playing by diff pattern.. doesn’t center around a protocol but an agent
lot of things people in blockchain in world are excited about.. but blockchain’s limitations in terms of scale, speed, cost.. prevent distributed tech to solve problems
(w holochain) don’t need an api.. natural ecosystem w bridging functions.. transforming one thing into another ..and that ‘s actually requirement for all regenerative system..
Jean M Russell (@NurtureGirl) tweeted at 9:18 PM on Tue, Apr 24, 2018:
Goes into the depth of it all AND gets the anti-fragility dimension, especially good geek dive: https://t.co/7N31oTKwB0
Holochain is essentially the “blockchain” component that runs on top of Ceptr
We can build in rules and guidelines that everyone follows locally – we don’t need to take our business global, like Ethereum or Bitcoin. This makes the entire system much more scalable – and importantly, much more true to the real world.
Holochain – The commons engine for cooperation at scale | P2P Foundation https://t.co/Om87q4AEVv
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/KevinCarson1/status/1022896348386025479
The vision with the commons engine is to power a series of thriving commons based economies – picture things like peer-to-peer renewable electricity cooperatives, or ride sharing communities – by creating the technical infrastructure that enables contributions by participants to be recognized elsewhere within, and perhaps beyond, that community.
That ends up enabling flows of activity regardless of whether the community possesses traditional “money.”
We think of currencies as just some way of recognising some specific form of contribution.
we just count all of the additions and subtractions from your account. Your balance is going to be the sum of all those inflows and outflows
However, if you see someone change their key 3 seconds before they ask you to wire them £10million – you’re probably not going to send it, you’re going to back up a moment and do some extra things to check and make sure everything is kosher.
why keys..? why money..?
more security if launching nuclear weapons..
You’d need to be able to track if people had paid membership dues… and hours used and available on the machines…
That’s actually how we spent the bulk of the last 10 years – we spent 7 years working on creating automatically interoperable systems – mapping out how to build and building this kind of “hyper-interoperable future”
i’m into the interoperability.. but money.. and security.. et al.. is a distraction
Our hope is that this results in ways of coordinating with one another that are not only more effective, but more human as well; That this enables us to coordinate at even very large scales, but in ecosystemic ways rather than hierarchical ways. That should give these new communities big learning advantages over traditional forms of organization, and with luck, might actually start to shift humanity away from some of the erosive patterns that have been creating downward spirals for so long, and instead start making use of much more regenerative patterns.
But we’re running short on time..t.. The old economic models have been so destructive. We’re putting in the work to try to shift to a more thriving paradigm.
to hasten..let go of ie: money/measure/keys.. just focus on coord ie: curiosity
from planetary survival
the main reason bitcoin and its blockchain are inefficient in terms of energy consumption is that every new transaction has to be validated by the whole network, leading to an exponential increase in the number of resources needed to maintain the system. holochain does this significantly different. it is technically not a blockchain, but simply a way for separate ledgers to cooperate and become interoperable w each other.. hence, holochain is infinitely scalable at marginal cost
holochain rather relies on its peers to ensure the integrity of the data shared among them.. the peers of the network hold part of the data and validate it against a set of shared validation rules.. in other words.. users audit each other’s actions to see whether they have been authored in accordance w their common validation rules
april 2020 – 50 min podcast
Holochain Deep Dive with Arthur Brock and Eric-Harris-Braun
New episode of Hacker Noon podcast in which Utsav Jaiswal (@utsav_jaiswal1) interviews Arthur Brock (@artbrock) and Eric Harris-Braun, (@zippy314) Co-Founders of @holochain.
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/hackernoon/status/1247978836605763596
6 min – a: clearly architectures in which large scale coord can happen .. how do those architectures work.. (nature/bio.. accomplish w/o having to sync everything to global ledger)
perhaps.. by each individual listening to self first.. and trusting that..
‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows
11 min – a: holochain doesn’t manage consensus.. more set up like way world works.. in blockchain everyone has a copy.. so need consensus to change things.. when agent centric approach.. where everybody has copy of dna.. in body.. every cell has copy of dna.. the cell changes its state according to its instructions.. doesn’t need permission from other cells.. then it broadcasts info.. thru diff protocols.. thru hormones et al..but then the other cells have their set of rules they’re following.
so imagine we go as deep as your cell analogy with people.. to 8b people.. and just let them listen to the code w/in them everyday (aka: daily curiosity) .. their self-talk as data/broadcast.. that we can then use to augmenting interconnectedness (at least until we get detoxed and maybe don’t need tech to facil that)
13 min – a: so in our system.. our dht is a little weird.. it’s a mutually evaluating one.. so every application is a separate network/dht.. the dht becomes the organism that the cells create
imagine deeper.. getting us back/to an undisturbed ecosystem
14 min – a: all you have to do is trust your own copy of the dna
imagine if we were to just trust each heart..
15 min – a: everybody can validate.. not even subject to a majority.. i can check for myself.. changes dynamics in such interesting ways.. natural systems are closer to the way holochain works.. if you think about the way distributing computing normally works thru consensus.. then holochain confounds you because you can’t get your mindset out of the consensus
16 min – a: the one other big diff.. we gossip the data to the nodes.. who’s address space is closest to that hash.. that lets us always make requests by people who’s addresses are near the thing we are looking for.. becomes a self balancing/healing network..t.. the data gets (gossipped) around and nobody has to hold it all..
17 min – e: composition of 2 techs: hashchain (allows individuals to work autonomous and make declarations about a rule set).. combine that agentcentricity and say.. now i’m going to publish it.. instead of storing a file.. storing an action according to rules.. so checking rules together as a society.. so the individual tech and the social agreement space
not as resonating.. (too much added – ie: to validate et al).. but perhaps getting at the 2 ness of 2 convers.. ie: self first.. then that data to connect to others – in same neighborhood/curiosity)
24 min – a: you have to publish to your chain first.. dna is rules of game.. and chain is your action.. first pivot is dna itself.. you know they have correct rules
too much non needed work/energy on this.. ie: rejecting validation et al.. too much checking up on others
i do like: ‘have to publish to your chain first’.. it’s like curiosity over decision making
33 min – a: proof, counting credits, incentive..t
red flags we’re doing it wrong
39 min – a: we already have accounts .. w/ holochain.. your transaction becomes your accounting.. t.. so has possibility of any businesses unit of account to become a crypto currency.. not a token that you try to convince has value.. ie: need credits that we know can get whiskey with.. created a currency.. this is just accounting.. accounting is legal everywhere.. if you can put accounting framework in place.. we took out middle man and can do accounting thru these transactions.. currencies that aren’t speculative.. value based on production
huge red flag..
ie: ubi as temp placebo.. (people thinking they have money when really just getting whatever they need)
findings et al
originally intro to this was via michel fb share:
the mutation of consciousness as expressed in code:
“In this episode Utsav Jaiswal interviews Arthur Brock and Eric Harris-Braun, Co-Founders of Holochain – an Open Source framework for building fully distributed, peer-to-peer applications.They talk about Holochain’s mission and values, how it differs from Blockchains, and how to manage distributed teams.
“What we’ve been interested in is really how do we collectively shape currents, flows for a better world, for greater collective intelligence, for coordinating and collaborating better.”- Arthur Brock“Holochain is what we’ve come to after a very long time and a lot of intense efforts in understanding those (biological) patterns of how to create tools for distributed collective intelligence… And Holochain is our answer to being able to do that.”- Eric Harris-Braun “
“Holochain creates currencies that are not speculative. It creates currencies that are based on actual production. People, for a long time, have been wondering why we have all these currencies when the government can issue as much of it as they want, whenever they want. It’s funny, in the blockchain world, they call their currencies non-fiat and government currencies – fiat, but blockchain currencies are also actually fiat.They are declared out of nowhere. Whereas, if you do this other pattern of creating mutual credit currencies based on productive capacity, then you are actually creating something that represents actual *value in the world and our economics can become based on value rather than speculation.”
the mutation of consciousness, as expressed in code: Holochain Deep Dive with Arthur Brock and Eric-Harris-Braun https://t.co/oMzgXHZq5D
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/mbauwens/status/1249607019964882944