arthur: we need to build some healthier patterns

eric: the primary thing we’re trying to create w holochain is a uncloseable carrier for doing communication interaction

jean: why do we want a decentralized internet..? because we want agency, autonomy, security.. those 3 things are really important and we’re losing that today

arthur: blockchain.. is also burning the planet.. and repeating all these things they were claiming to fix.. but the claims.. the goals were good

maybe.. i’m thinking not deep enough.. if we want healthy planet.. healthy people.. we need to disengage from measuring transactions..

arthur: holochain.. for solving similar problems.. but w/o bottlenecks.. et al

what if the bottlenecks aren’t the problem.. what if the problem is.. we’re trying to solve the wrong problem..

ie: not about security.. about antifragility..

jean: holo is a bridge to mainstream audience.. so everybody can participate in the new internet

deeper problem.. we don’t want everyone participating in .. we want everybody alive..we need the energy from that

blockchain or holochain or whatever.. but use for (hosting life bits) hlb via 2 convos .. to get at basic needs

ie: hlb via 2 convos that io dance.. as the day..[aka: not part\ial.. for (blank)’s sake…]..  a nother way

arthur: you get paid for providing the hosting services


eric: you get these applications that are human centric as opposed to money centric.. which is what i think they are right now

we need to get rid of money.. if we want to get back to us

what you’re proposing sounds like a nicer (than blockchain) nicer (than bitcoin) nicer .. version of the same thing.. ie: people wanting change.. but not going deep enough.. not letting go enough to say.. good bye cycle..

arthur: hold things together.. make sure everyone is following the rules.. to have an immune system ..to *kick out bad actors.. natural systems the way our body does this w **cells.. i think it’s going to be a ***bigger game changer than we can imagine

*we can’t do that.. if we want a human centric system.. has to be for all of us.. no strings.. no judgement.. assume good..

the body kicks out **cancerous ness.. so.. let’s get rid of our bad dna/rna.. not people.. best way to do this..? gershenfeld sel.. and.. your own song ness.. roots of healing.. et al

***imagine deeper..

dang.. you guys are so lovely.. i wish we could talk



adding page this day

Arthur talking to Jon on fb

Some low-hanging fruit is using blockchain for transparency (with privacy) for election accountability. It would be an improvement. Everyone could confirm their own votes showed up and were counted properly. But it would take other levels of controls to ensure no Sybil votes.

But I think you’re reaching for something more that I don’t think the architecture of blockchain is appropriate for, and it is the reason we’ve designed Holochain so differently.

I can’t help but think that at the core of blockchain governance is the integrated and explicit ability to govern blockchain code and protocols of the themselves. Blockchain should certainly not be used as a source of governing things outside itself, until it can govern itself. As we delegate more powers to to decentralized architectures like blockchain, it becomes a centralized point of control until clear governance of its own code and protocols is in place. To claim we’ve built a decentralized system (simply because there isn’t one central ledger for accounting) while the code and protocols are largely controlled by a small handful of people is to lie to ourselves.

But the truth is, if every smart contract and distributed app runs in a big monolithic blockchain, as they do in Ethereum for example, how can you expect to create the social coherence across all groups of users for all purposes (e.g. people wanting ETH to just be a store of value currency, or wanting Ethereum to power small smart contracts or full-scale dApps, which it can’t really because of per gas limits and the costs of gas being so high because of the people that want it to be a store of value currency….).

In Holochain every app runs on its own holochain and can integrate its own governance. An app embodies all the protocols, structures, and agreements for how individuals can participate in the shared space of that app (which could be a currency, or a commons, or a voting system, or a platform cooperative, or a web site). There’s no Class Segregation of miners and clients because it is designed to be fully P2P without any energy waste on mining. We haven’t finished building the governance mixins for apps, but soon we’ll have the ability for each app to specify how it “officially” accepts new version updates of itself, which is where the governance comes in and how it is made explicit.

That’s probably enough blather for the moment. But again, I would stress that you shouldn’t trust something to govern something else, if you don’t know it is governed, because you’ve just handed control over to invisible puppet-masters when you do.



perhaps first time i heard of it..? i don’t know..

Matthew Schutte here:

fb live – why is blockchain diff than holochain

holochain: distributed storage system

for hosting-life-bits..? that io dance..?

in our mind.. bitcoin/ethereum.. make use of distributed computing networks.. but not distributed computing system.. a centralized system that makes use of distributed network.. subscribing to master ness for what happened in past.. specific subjective perspective of history.. et al.. ie: bitcoin has mining.. ledger as list of history.. ie: bitcoin really interested on who’s holding on to these coins..

we’re trying to solve a diff problem.. we do have some currency stuff.. but desire to enable communities to steer selves better.. to be able to form/change/disband… in fluid ways..

hosting-life-bits.. via self-talk as data.. that io dance..

blockchain.. have to be aware of everything.. in order to trust

not getting rid of trust.. switching it..

try to get to what is true.. but generating truth is really costly… nature demos that cheap enough kicks crap out of true.. ie: if you and i in a room and you are paying attention to everything going on.. you can witness the truth..  and i pay attention to one thing.. i got to eat and you did not.. one of us likely to survive..

rather than good enough.. what i mean is.. that a subset of info that is the appropriate info is more useful than all of info

spot on to self-talk as data

14 min – what we’re trying to do is enable an individual and community they’re wanting to interact with to be able to coord activities by what they care about.. don’t have to pay attention to everyone.. only have to pay attention to my activity..

talking with twain liu (https://www.startupgrind.com/u/m9483b/)

story about people grokking what matters

a nother way.. mech leaves trail.. but we don’t follow trail.. we listen to gut and live by whimsy/connections..

blockchains are one size fits all

enables us to not hold onto everything.. but most importantly allows us to evolve.. to search for better solutions..

23 min – realized need to break ceptr into smaller parts.. learning how to play this way .. bigger user base.. before build whole system… then developed holochain.. we’ve got 3 pieces… carved off larger project.. we’re trying to ship this year…

3 parts: storage.. protocol.. processing


ceptr on holochain


go beyond blockchain bottlenecks and global census ledgers

Holochains are ideal for:

  • Social Networks, Social Media & VRM: You want to run a social network without a company like Facebook in the middle. You want to share, post, publish, or tweet to shared space, while automatically keeping a copy of these things on your own device.
  • Supply Chains & Open Value Networks: You want to have information that crosses the boundaries of companies, organizations, countries, which is collaboratively shared and managed, but not under the central control of any one of those organizations.
  • Cooperatives and New Commons: You want to create something which is truly held collectively and not by any particular individual. This is especially good for digital assets.
  • P2P Platforms: Peer-to-Peer applications where every person has similar capabilities, access, responsibilities, and value is produced collectively.
  • Collective Intelligence: Governance, decision-making frameworks, feedback systems, ratings, currencies, annotations, or work flow systems.
  • Collaborative Applications: Chats, Discussion Boards, Scheduling Apps, Wikis, Documentation, etc.
  • Reputational, or Mutual Credit Cryptocurrencies: Currencies where issuance can be accounted for by actions of peers (like ratings), or through double-entry accounting are well-suited for holochains. Fiat currencies where tokens are thought to exist independent of accountability by agents are more challenging to implement on holochains

When NOT to Use Holochain

You probably SHOULD NOT use holochain for:

  • Just for yourself: You generally don’t need distributed tools to just run something for yourself. The exception would be if you want to run a holochain to synchronize certain data across a bunch of your devices (phone, laptop, desktop, cloud server, etc.)
  • Anonymous / Secret / Private data: Not only do we need to do a security audit of our encryption and permissions, but you’re publishing to a shared DHT space, so unless you really know what you’re doing, you should not assume data is private. Some time in the future, people will certainly add some applications to provide anonymization layers (similar to TOR), but that is not native to holochain.
  • Large files: Think of holochains more like a database for structured data storage than a file system for storing music and videos. Nobody wants to be forced to load and host your big files on their devices just because they’re in the neighborhood of its hash. Use something like IPFS if you’re looking for a decentralized file system.
  • Data positivist-oriented apps: If you have built all of your application logic around the idea that data exists as an absolute truth, not as an assertion by an agent at a time, then you would need to rethink your whole approach before putting it in a Holochain app. This is why most existing cryptocurrencies would need significant refactoring to move from blockchain to holochain, since they are organized around managing the existence of cryptographic tokens.

Holochain is a part of a much larger vision for distributed computing to enable quantum leaps in our collective intelligence and abilities for groups to organize themselves on all scales. You can find out more about Ceptr here.


holo on holochain


What if no one stood between you and your data or dictated how you connect with friends, family, and community? Holo is a peer-to-peer network for hosting web applications. This creates a “cloud” run — and owned — by users like you and me.

Apps available on Holo are built on Holochain, an alternative to blockchain technology that is 1) massively faster, 2) more energy efficient, 3) more scalable, and 4) ten thousand times cheaper!

Host people’s data on Holo and get paid in our cryptocurrency, Holo fuel. Holo fuel can be used to pay hosts for data storage and processing. Plus, it makes in-app purchases and micro payments easy.

Join Holo. Serve the World. Earn crypto.


at davos – Is Holochain Better than Blockchain? | Interview (4 min) with Matthew Schutte 


we are an alt to blockchain.. we built a diff infra for running truly p2p.. no mining.. no cryptocurrency.. no business model.. so anyone can use it

a solution that doesn’t make use of consensus.. to enable communities to enable ways it works for them.. and when it stops working for any of them.. they can start playing by diff pattern.. doesn’t center around a protocol but an agent

lot of things people in blockchain in world are excited about.. but blockchain’s limitations in terms of scale, speed, cost.. prevent distributed tech to solve problems

(w holochain) don’t need an api.. natural ecosystem w bridging functions.. transforming one thing into another ..and that ‘s actually requirement for all regenerative system..


Jean M Russell (@NurtureGirl) tweeted at 9:18 PM on Tue, Apr 24, 2018:
Goes into the depth of it all AND gets the anti-fragility dimension, especially good geek dive: https://t.co/7N31oTKwB0

Holochain is essentially the “blockchain” component that runs on top of Ceptr

We can build in rules and guidelines that everyone follows locally – we don’t need to take our business global, like Ethereum or Bitcoin. This makes the entire system much more scalable – and importantly, much more true to the real world.


via Matthew

Holochain – The commons engine for cooperation at scale | P2P Foundation https://t.co/Om87q4AEVv

Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/KevinCarson1/status/1022896348386025479

The vision with the commons engine is to power a series of thriving commons based economies – picture things like peer-to-peer renewable electricity cooperatives, or ride sharing communities – by creating the technical infrastructure that enables contributions by participants to be recognized elsewhere within, and perhaps beyond, that community.

That ends up enabling flows of activity regardless of whether the community possesses traditional “money.”

disengaging form ‘traditional’ money.. makes no difference.. if  you’re still measuring.. you’re still compromising.. the ecosystem.. the commoning

We think of currencies as just some way of recognising some specific form of contribution.


we just count all of the additions and subtractions from your account. Your balance is going to be the sum of all those inflows and outflows

However, if you see someone change their key 3 seconds before they ask you to wire them £10million – you’re probably not going to send it, you’re going to back up a moment and do some extra things to check and make sure everything is kosher.

why keys..? why money..?

more security if launching nuclear weapons..

You’d need to be able to track if people had paid membership dues… and hours used and available on the machines…

That’s actually how we spent the bulk of the last 10 years – we spent 7 years working on creating automatically interoperable systems – mapping out how to build and building this kind of “hyper-interoperable future”

i’m into the interoperability.. but money.. and security.. et al.. is a distraction

Our hope is that this results in ways of coordinating with one another that are not only more effective, but more human as well; That this enables us to coordinate at even very large scales, but in ecosystemic ways rather than hierarchical ways. That should give these new communities big learning advantages over traditional forms of organization, and with luck, might actually start to shift humanity away from some of the erosive patterns that have been creating downward spirals for so long, and instead start making use of much more regenerative patterns.

But we’re running short on time..t. The old economic models have been so destructive. We’re putting in the work to try to shift to a more thriving paradigm.

to hasten..let go of ie: money/measure/keys.. just focus on coord ie: curiosity


follow holochain:

link twitter