hier archy ness



wikipedia small

people telling other people what to do ness

hierarchy (from the Greek hierarkhia, “rule of a high priest”, from hierarkhes, “president of sacred rites”) is an arrangement of items (objects, names, values, categories, etc.) in which the items are represented as being “above”, “below”, or “at the same level as” one another. Hierarchy is an important concept in a wide variety of fields, such as philosophy, mathematics, computer science, organizational theory, systems theory, and the social sciences (especially political philosophy).

A hierarchy can link entities either directly or indirectly, and either vertically or diagonally. The only direct links in a hierarchy, insofar as they are hierarchical, are to one’s immediate superior or to one of one’s subordinates, although a system that is largely hierarchical can also incorporate alternative hierarchies. Hierarchical links can extend “vertically” upwards or downwards via multiple links in the same direction, following a path. All parts of the hierarchy which are not linked vertically to one another nevertheless can be “horizontally” linked through a path by traveling up the hierarchy to find a common direct or indirect superior, and then down again. This is akin to two co-workers or colleagues; each reports to a common superior, but they have the same relative amount of authority. Organizational forms exist that are both alternative and complementary to hierarchy. Heterarchy is one such form.

it seems there’s no talk of hierarchy w/o manmade/manufactured terminology/ideology.. ie: president; fields; subordinates; co-workers; superiors; authority; teacher/trainer; student; .. et al (all red flags we’re doing it/life wrong)

am thinking our biggest (?) hangup with hierarchy is thinking human beings are more about decision making than curiosity (f&b&dm same law)

and to that end.. begs we focus on undoing the listening hierarchy (we’ve been perfecting) with ie: 2 convers as infra


adding page this day:

Michel Bauwens (@mbauwens) tweeted at 4:55 AM – 20 Aug 2019 :
Hierarchical systems for policy design and integration https://t.co/EiFXkKeLSh (http://twitter.com/mbauwens/status/1163766405227065344?s=17)

thinking.. hierarchy for human beings: art ists and bot ists ness

bot ist art ist entire cleanerest

freeman structure law (?) – not about no structure.. but about who’s crafting it (has to be everybody) and when (has to be ongoing)

perhaps what we need most is a mech to facil a non hierarchical listening to every voice everyday..  ie: tech as it could be (we’ve still got that hierarchical form of listening to each human.. everyday)

so.. in talking of our undisturbed ecosystem.. all of us are artists..

undisturbed ecosystem: ‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows

and so.. let’s do this first: free art/ists

from article [https://pedon.blogspot.com/2019/08/hierarchical-systems.html?]:

we are not completely separable, and cooperation is the default starting point. Cooperation is precisely what we should expect. The challenge is to explain deviations from cooperation, or breakdowns and therefore conflict, rather than the other way around..t

or perhaps.. to just focus on a means to get us back to our natural interconnectedness.. ie: using tech as it could be..  to augment interconnectedness via 2 convers as infra


graeber/wengrow back & forth law – imagining the possibilities with a mech/infra to facil *iterations of that cycling (as limit approaches both ends of infinity – ginorm/small). .everyday.. zoom dancing

holacracy et al


Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s Wisdom (@TalebWisdom) tweeted at 10:36 AM on Mon, Aug 26, 2019:
“Contra the prevailing belief, “success” isn’t being on top of a hierarchy, it is standing outside all hierarchies.” – Nassim Nicholas Taleb in The Bed of Procrustes


David Graeber (@davidgraeber) tweeted at 6:02 AM – 9 Sep 2019 :
@wackywheatleys ever read “Hierarchy in the Forest” – it argues that while there is a genetic tendency for that, actually becoming humans with culture etc first meant forming self-conscious mechanisms to counter-act that tendency & create egalitarian social forms (http://twitter.com/davidgraeber/status/1171031090510860289?s=17)

skimmed christopher boehm’s 1999 hierarchy in the forest – the evolution of egalitarian behavior – to me too much was based on data from whales in sea world and apes in the forest.. and referencing as ‘evolved human nature’

a couple quotes:


.. egalitarianism in in effect a bizarre type of political hierarchy: the weak combine forces to actively dominate the strong.. my thesis is that they must continue such domination if they are to remain autonomous and equal.. we’ll see they appear to have done so very predictably as long as hunting bands remained mobile

mobility perhaps good piece of equity.. but.. here i’m sensing his thoughts on egalitarianism.. aren’t jiving w what i see as equity (everyone getting a go everyday) in an undisturbed ecosystem.. ‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows

this is why i’m skimming.. basis of book.. and to me.. it’s all describing situations that aren’t ie: everyone getting a go everyday.. but rather an already clouded view of human nature


the subject – of this book – is power in groups – how it is allocated and esp how it s regulated

perhaps thinking we need to allocate/regulate are red flags we’re doing it wrong


i believe if a stable egalitarian hierarchy is to be achieved, the basic flow of power in society must be reversed definitively, i also believe it takes considerable effort to maintain that condition.. thus.. egalitarianism does not just happen

perhaps effort.. is also a red flag we’re doing it wrong.. that lack of trust.. that lack of letting go enough.. as cancer..  kills us and keeps us from the dance/undisturbed ecosystem..


hunter gatherers.. when they remain mobile are uniformly egalitarian.. these people (tribesmen) domesticated plants and animals and *most of them remained egalitarian in a fashion **similar to that of their foraging predecessors.. product of constant vigilance

perhaps the mobility.. but domestication.. vigilance.. red flag..

*most and **similar – signs neither were truly undisturbed ecosystems.. the beginning of whales in sea world


sci anthropology emerged in 19th cent as a robust but tiny discipline that faced the enormous task of explaining nonliterate cultures and their natural history to a world of urban literates..

thinking this is still our problem.. that hierarchy ness that comes with tech that limit access.. ie: language/written-word/et-al


the critical question of hierarchy – was the common ancestor hierarchical or not

i go with this.. graeber/wengrow back & forth law

but also with thinking that we have no idea what we’re capable of in an undisturbed ecosystem because we keep clouding human nature by thinking we can define/draw-a-line of ie: hierarchical or not.. then we observe our observed selves (no longer legit human nature).. and called that human nature or the evolution of human nature


morality is inextricably entangled w langue..

begs idio-jargon and a means to listen to every voice.. every day (non hierarch).. something we’ve not yet had before ie: tech as it could be..


perhaps best ethnographic data on human ambivalence come form public decision meetings.. as groups struggle sot fin a consensus..  (this in chapter on human nature)

see.. i think once we’re in a group like that and talking consensus (public consensus always oppresses someone.. and decision making (over curiosity).. we’re no longer talking legit human nature

and to go w comment on 187.. this is hierarchical language again adding the hierarchy


value systems that favor altruism

undisturbed ecosystem – where we just trust us.. and people don’t try to label ie: value systems..


human universals – 10 pages describing them.. rules of membership.. et al

let’s go here.. maté basic needs.. deep enough to no longer be spending our energy talking ie: hierarchy


means to get rid of our listening hierarchy: listen & connect


michel fb share:

I added a little note to the ‘P2P Hierarchy Theory’ section in our wiki, which has reached near 9k views since re-instating our counter last month:

“Three perspectives

To understand power and hierarchy in its historical development, there are at least the following perspectives that can be helpful:

  • the perspective of the ‘mode of production’ which helps to see the structural organization in society, and how class is determined by the place in that structure; this is what the French historians and later the marxist tradition brought to bear; it is still vital to look at material interests and how this influences the mode of consciousness of the participants in societal struggles
  • the perspective of the ‘mode of exchange’ shows that each mode of exchange, i.e. commoning, the gift economy, redistribution and market pricing, has its own peculiar logics and mentalities (even if expressed differently across time and space); this perspective can be found in the relational grammar of Alan Page Fiske, and has been shown in its historical development by the synthesis of Kojin Karatani.
  • the perspective of the ‘mode of power’, as expressed by Jonathan Nitzan and Shimshon Bichler, in their landmark, ‘Capital as Power

focus on production, exchange, power, .. perhaps all red flags we’re doing it wrong.. that we’re perpetuating tragedy of the non common


This idea that “everyone follows and everyone leads” is powerful because it captures the understanding that we are co-producers of our social realities. It is a reflection of the systemic nature of human relations: fluid, dynamic, reciprocal. – – Kathia Laszlo

in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows

The possibility for the real community, the one based on interpersonal relationships and affections, to be an efficient productive unit is something radically new, and its potential to empower is far from having been developed. – David de Ugarte

we could undo the listening hierarchy with 2 convers as infra


kevin fb post:

Hierarchies are machines for telling naked emperors how good their clothes look.


from david graeber‘s debt (book):



this intro’s another complication to problem of giving gifts to superior.. there is always the danger that it will be treated as a precedent.. added to web of custom and therefore considered obligatory thereafter..


once relations based on ‘custom’ only way to demo one has a duty/obligation to do something is to show that one has done it before.. often such arrangements can turn into a logic of caste.. ie: come to be known as fishermen or barbers..

caste ness

this last point can’t be overemphasized because it brings home another truth regularly overlooked: that the logic of id is, always and everywhere, entangled in the logic of hierarchy..t

the logic of identity is, always and everywhere, entangled in the logic of hierarchy.‘.. t

yes.. huge.. identity ness; label(s); habitus; hier archy ness; et al

it is only when certain people are placed above others, or where everyone is being ranked in relation to the king, high priest, et al.. that one begins to speak of people bound by their essential nature: about fundamentally diff kinds of human being.. ideologies of caste or race are just extreme ie’s.. it happens whenever one group is seen as raising selves above/below others.. in a way that *ordinary standards of fair dealing no longer apply


marsh label law et al

*unsettling to begin with.. so (for me) not the point here


murray bookchin – ecology of freedom


from simona ferlini quoting spinoza

Trying to reduce the complexity of human relations under one individual’s mind is just the worst way to deal with it, and this not because of a moral judgement upon hierarchy, but because of the simple fact that it doesn’t work
#Spinoza Tractatus Politicus VI,5 https://t.co/mc5PZYz5sJ
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/sonmi451it/status/1471952174557114373

corollarium: complexity doesn’t require hierarchy, and doesn’t necessarily lead to hierarchy (#TheDawnOfEverything, Full Circle)