michel on regen network
RT @gregory_landua: mbauwens is by far my favorite thinker and doer leading the commons movement. It was an honor to get to dig in with him. https://t.co/6Wtoos8JlB
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/mbauwens/status/1266610203623030786
95 min podcast.. listening from Soundcloud: bit.ly/3gzTb4C
2 min – g: commons and markets.. historically .. split.. this is really a diff perspective that understands historical nature of creation of markets and there really is no dichotomy and there’s no anti market ideology embedded in michel’s work .. or in my understanding of commons.. instead there’s an understanding of *how to create tools for people to engage in setting the rules for local and international markets.. for creative ways to provision important community resources.. it’s really enlivening to me.. one of the most inspiring movements that’s active today.. that we understand the intersection between individual sovereignty and liberty and initiative.. community solidarity and id.. *creating tools for us to realize the potential of individuals in community and communities of communities is enormously important
perhaps enlivening .. because we don’t want to let go of that control market ness allows.. even in the nicer (seemingly more regen) version
6 min – g: overarching topic – right relationship between market and commons.. let’s between diff types of markets and diff types of commons.. i don’t think either is singular
g: also would like to get more on broad overview of p2p and commons
7 min – m: historical background.. commoning a primary means for humans to exchange/allocate resources.. in my view it was the first one..
common\ing et al
marsh exchange law et al
8 min – m: ie: 1\ h&g period.. for the group.. so rules for the group 2\ then gift econ.. and important to know diff between two.. commoning is pooling.. everyone working and sharing resource together.. and gift is.. i give something.. but specific expectation of return.. way i see it.. is like a peace making technique.. can’t have just fixed villages.. so can’t avoid conflict .. so create social obligations thru the gift
wow.. at 11 min and 13 min saying 2nd and 3rd phase.. so calling h/g commoning and gift econ first phase? – called commoning? gift ness as commoning..?
if so.. i think that’s big time where we’re missing it..
9 min – m: so emergence of dominator societies based on conquest.. that’s when redistribution comes in.. in order to justify your power you have to do something good for it as well.. once start conquering activities.. basically have to show something for it.. domination can’t be based entirely on force..
bauwens property law et al
10 min – m: and then we have markets.. but before capitalism.. commons an integral part of every society.. but once we start enclosing the commons..
which i think market does..
11 min – m: and that is basically what capitalism is about.. privatizing things.. making it into a commodity that you can sell.. then those types of commons dramatically reduced.. to .. most people don’t even know what commons are.. it’s private and public.. that’s the vision we have
m: second big phase.. once we have enclosure.. the privatization of the commons.. then we have all these people in cities that die.. (from poor).. and that’s when we get social commons.. when you don’t have property.. create life risk.. all kinds of mechs to smooth out the risk of life.. i consider welfare system before generalized by state.. as a social commons
yeah.. need to go deeper.. ie: red flag we’re already doing it wrong if need to smooth out risk of life (ie: for the have nots)
12 min – m: so then can say we privatized natural resource commons and we statified the social commons.. modern welfare state system after ww2..
13 min – m: and now coming to the current moment.. a third phase.. which is digital networks.. and suddenly humanity rediscovers.. we can share.. knowledge.. software.. designs.. so today.. the re emerge of the commons first of all in these open source communities.. after 2008 .. starts becoming physical.. ie: emergence of urban commons.. pooling resources in cities (mobility, housing)
14 min – m: study in ghent ie: 50 urban commons in 2008.. 500 in 2017.. 10 fold increase.. 300 000 people in ghent
19 min – m: once you feel like a commoner your id is diff.. if worker.. need salary
20 min – m: have to make a distinction between capitalism and markets..
21 min – g: on elinor ostrom and natural resources..
22 min – g: worked on .. just by listening to people.. this participatory design process we called financial permaculture.. we found 8 discrete forms of value that we termed capital.. which fin capital was only one.. people id ing they exchanged and had diff rules for social capital.. for preservation/provisioning.. of social capital in form of favors.. etc.. there’s living capital.. which i make a distinction between living and natural capital.. we use capital loosely.. it’s a provocative to call it capital.. i don’t have strong feeling it needs to be quantified.. but there’s value there.. similar to social capital.. living capital must be cultivated and you can’t take too much out of the system w/o it starting to fall apart.. ie: if you ask too many favors w/o reciprocity.. it starts to dissolve
red flag we’re doing it wrong.. that people aren’t legit free/commoning.. 1\ people asking too many favors 2\ people expecting something in return.. i don’t think that’s how it dances
g: timber to lumber (living to natural).. starts to degrade common resource
25 min – g: on nesting markets w/in commons.. then how do you define governance.. redistribution.. et al
like cancer w/in a body
28 min – m: the guilds for me are a form of social commons.. established markets that worked for them.. shows you can have markets designed from commons pov.. guilds had own judicial system
yeah.. i think once we get the commons.. it will be global..
i don’t see how we can have it partial
30 min – g: on consistent internal state w/web
m: tokens.. not like a capitalist would design
g: invigorating to understand this next.. w some people’s work on commoning there can be a reactionary against capitalism..
m: in value in commons.. moving from commodity based to cooperation based.. then can have choice of what kind of commons you want
32 min – m: in current context.. you cannot make a living.. so commons is only experienced by some..
has to be everyone in sync.. or it won’t work
w/ubi as temp placebo.. needs met w/o money..people forget about measuring
33 min – g: for me.. the concept of nested systems..
36 min – m: in capitalism .. no way to fund these things.. only one way to make money.. extraction.. then we tax it or do philanthropy and part of that money trickles down if lucky to fund gen activities.. this is where we have to change.. i don’t have an answer to this.. but one is.. circular finance.. calculate neg externalities and make agreements that it goes back to people contributing.. verified on public ledger.. tokenized.. in a way formed a miracle in funding generative work.. i think this is the holy grail of what we need to do
38 min – m: we have reached a stage that we are so over using.. that we can’t (go on) unless we account for these externalities
what about over using human energy.. with all the accounting..
findings (from 10 yrs experimenting):
2\ if we create a way to ground the chaos of 8b free people
we have to get back to our undisturbed ecosystem
39 min – g: we’re building toward that accounting system you’re talking about.. in the mean time issuing credits.. for carbon market.. baby step in that direction
g: there needs to be tools for much more localized groups to do internal accounting and feed that up to the next nested system
but we have to let go of the inspectors of inspectors obsession..
41 min – g: on carbon reward currency.. if you can provably verify.. get reward currency..
g: for any of that to work needs a high degree of rigor/transparency around how verification takes place.. no matter how you design.. we believe there’s a basic infra that doesn’t exist yet.. crypto security.. verification at diff scales (local, regional, national) that just doesn’t exist yet
security we need.. (perhaps only one that will ever work).. gershenfeld something else law
wasting so much energy.. and will eventually just circle back around to what we have now.. because if people aren’t legit free.. we’ll take/cheat/steal more..
44 min – m: guild and cities creating a world that worked for them.. i think that’s what we’re doing.. commoners.. have little power.. so have to make all kinds of compromises..
we don’t have to compromise.. in fact.. we can’t.. or just tragedy of the non common
47 min – m: on disciplining ruling class into a more generative behavior
disciplining anyone won’t work
48 min – m: i’m working more on a political level.. trying to convince politicians this is where we need to go
49 min – m: on covid and needing ppe.. and open source sharing.. but can’t share because doesn’t meet regulations.. commons doesn’t have enough protocols.. we need to convince politicians that we need these protocols for circle of finance
50 min – g: you can create structure and tools for rewarding and verifying
m: if i look at 10 yrs ago and where we are today.. amazing.. we’re establishing the seed forms
54 min – once you have purgatory.. before purgatory coulnd’t lend money.. making money with money not judged positively by catholic church.. once have purgatory.. you can sin.. lend money.. and pay off w indulgences.. spiritual solutoin that allowed growth of cities..
g: wow.. so first phase of regen network is some ecological purgatory system.. to enable extractive capitalist system pay off indulgences..
m: that’s what we’re doing .. to recognize value you have to count it and have mechs.. that’s part of what we’re doing
55 min – m: people combine patterns et al.. and before you realize it.. you see this is another logic for organizing society
m: there are more and more people getting this.. i’m very interested in commons stack et al.. because that’s what they’re doing.. all these projects trying to formalize these patterns and tools that allow other people to take them up and use them
56 min – g: i sort of wish this would happen in another year or too.. always feel behind.. not ready yet..t
red flag you’re doing it wrong.. ie: not ready
wish you could hear that
g: it’s just too untried.. there’s no one complete.. where we can say.. just take that off the shelf.. and try to do a local currency right now.. so you can connect.. it’s like.. no no.. we have this idea.. but going to have to build it on the fly.. (just not there yet).. t
too untried.. of the things you can hear/see.. doesn’t mean untried
and.. too.. if infra is right.. (deep enough) .. patterns/maps/taking-things-off-shelf become irrelevant..
57 min – g: on metamodern ideology
m: i myself from integral theory.. w ken wilbur.. late 90s.. so i always saw p2p as some progressive integral
58 min – m: on sorkin – between ideation and materialistic..
1:01 – m: peter – rethinking the world – 3rd level.. mode of apprehension.. society can only change thru chaotic ness.. global system zero
1:02 – m: what we don’t have is something that can protect nature.. we have to get a system w a compact between humanity and nature
1:04: m: what i’m trying to see.. is how can we preserve freedom w/in the coercive limits
why w/in coercive limits.. ?
at this time when we can facil chaos w/o them
1:05 – m: finding ways to preserve that freedom is going to be.. what’s the best of the commons..? free.. mutualization.. free people gathering around common goals and shared resources.. so this mutual coordination.. stigmergy.. ability to see what everybody else is doing and freely adapt your behavior
i think we try to observe what everybody else is doing.. to our demise.. i think we need to let go of that.. ie: adapting our behavior has made us like
m: accounting gives you a vision of what’s happening in physical world
g: donut econ such a great visual.. upper/lower limit
1:07 – m: i think what she was missing.. looking at negative.. i think 3.0 is looking at resources in pragmatic positive way
g: human species aim should be to grow the planetary threshold.. grow the threshold we have to operate
yeah.. i don’t think so.. rather.. to get back/to enough.. so that we shrink the assumed needs/desires
1:08 – g: i resonate w small is beautiful and degrowth.. but misguided.. because doesn’t understand meaning/generative by us coming together to make something grow.. the invitation is to grow in our lifetime.. to garden the earth.. grow the threshold we have available.. a very compelling planetary scale ethos..
1:10 – g: basic metamodernism is that there’s a demand for solidarity/id to coalesce around people who are post modern.. living in digital age and have certain life conditions to start taking responsibility in politics.. turns into a politics of process.. he’s very emphatic about psycho develop.. via institutions.. that’s traditionally been a very scary place.. if politics of process.. everyone is choosing..
1:13 – m: in p2p vision.. we don’t have to do that ranking.. everybody can see where it can find its place.. you’re always better/worse at something.. and it doesn’t matter.. all contributions necessary to health of whole.. don’t have to rank people just have to make sure they have skills.. then find a project that uses their skills.. then next.. recognize.. not everybody has skills.. so commons of capability.. so role of public sphere.. commons of the commons..
oh my.. so who’s going to decide if you/i have a skill or not.. ? what skills count?
let go of skills.. accounting.. et al
1:15 – m: role of public is to make sure everybody has capabilities to choose the commons of their choice..
1:16 – m: don’t have answer for but key for future.. 1\ territory 2\ virtual territory.. i think we need to find bridges between those two world.. and we don’t have that yet.. i don’t want people to be totally free.. i want there to be some bottom line.. democratic .. human rights.. based.. i want people to work all levels and bene the whole world.. so key.. how to create bridges between both.. need to build transnational institutions..t
1:18 – g: we have to step up and transform society in many ways.. global institutions w subsidiaire to local commons interests.. we can’t collapse into walls.. nation states.. that take care of their own.. misses what’s actually demanded of us.. to see in a more nuanced way.. diff levels/ways engaging in commoning.. to create this new world..
won’t happen unless we let go of trying to control it
1:21 – m: cosmo local is this idea about transnational.. to do local w/o retreating and becoming isolated
1:22 – m: what if cities would coalesce.. protocol coops in a common pool.. ethical finance et al.. so inter city global infras..
ie: cure ios city
g: if you mutualize those basic infras.. could include traditional capital in that.. bake in some reasonable return on investment .. while also giving citizens ubi.. as well as ub assets.. everyone a shareholder in entities
this is why you’re not ready yet
unsolvable (and time sucking) math problem
1:25 – m: we don’t have think tanks on this.. so still an uphill struggle
1:26 – g: this is potential intersection of commons and metamodernism.. respect for people who’d like to preserve traditional social values as well as create new values.. create tools to define stocks and flows.. so judgment free as to what level people are at.. spacious boundaries to create own reality
1:28 – g: i wonder .. do we need to wait 10 yrs so that businesses are successful (in this).. or are there businesses already successful
m: i don’t think so .. i don’t think idea of commons are understood
yeah.. even by the experts
1:30 – m: i have a very radical strategic vision but simply rejoice when something moves forward.. i keep eye on all things moving forward..
1:31: m: (on where to find more) best way: 1\ wiki.p2pfoundation.net 22 000 articles.. has to be something already existing.. 2\ then i curate on fb have 6 or 7 groups.. 3\ then every year we make reports.. ie: this summer text book on commons econ.. then going to work for 3 yrs on book.. world history according to the commons 4\ books
wow – 3 yrs on history of commons..
1:34 – m: i really think regen network is the leading edge.. our convo is proof that there is already a commons culture.. there is this common language already.. that is a new politics and view of civilization and we share it
g: yeah.. i think there’s this community.. and obviously we all have blind spots.. but yeah.. an emergent and increasingly self aware group of people