indy on collapse
indy johar on collapse
via bsky [https://bsky.app/profile/rowanhanley.bsky.social/post/3lc4fc2ok2s2e]:
Extraordinary podcast from Sarah Wilson and progressive thinker/complex problem solution provider Indy Johar. He says out loud what others are afraid to. 10-15 years climate/societal collapse, it’s underway & how we can navigate. [https://shows.acast.com/wild-with-sarah-wilson/episodes/indy-johar-the-starkest-collapse-prognosis-ive-heard]:
Wild with Sarah Wilson – INDY JOHAR: The starkest collapse prognosis I’ve heard – Ep. 193 November 2024
Indy Johar (founder of Dark Matter Labs, systems designer) re-imagines and redesigns systems for a changed world. The architect and Professor of Planetary Civics at Melbourne’s RMIT and the University of Sheffield has worked with and advised organisations worldwide. Including the Scottish Government, the Mayor of London and WikiHouse, solving complex, entangled problems. Using complexity, emergence and entanglement theories he is a rare expert in this space to provide the (only) path to fixing the world, which is to say fixing our relationship with the world.
This conversation goes to a level I’ve not been to before publicly. On his modelling, we don’t have any choice but to start building the world that comes next, for the current one has no viable pathway. He gives a vision for this this. And he gives a timeframe, too.
notes/quotes from podcast:
7 min – important to see these (food, eco, et al) are symptoms and not the true cause.. the true cause is the nature of our relationship to planet and how we externalize (?) value.. and how we ignore it (too far away.. too small..) that’s what’s causing us to be in this structural crisis
not deep enough
we need a problem deep enough to resonate w/8b today.. via a mechanism simple enough to be accessible/usable to 8b today.. in an ecosystem open enough to set/keep 8b legit free
ie: org around a problem deep enough (aka: org around legit needs) to resonate w/8b today.. via a mechanism simple enough (aka: tech as it could be) to be accessible/usable to 8b today.. and an ecosystem open enough (aka: sans any form of m\a\p) to set/keep 8b legit free
findings from on the ground ness:
1\ undisturbed ecosystem (common\ing) can happen
2\ if we create a way to facil the seeming chaos of 8b legit free people
8 min – compares to cola vs apple to health yet price both virtually the same..
10 min – will change: justice, affordances, business models, foods we eat – health or not.. this will transform where/how value lies
11 min – diff if look at what is nutritional rather than biodegradable
12 min – sarah: never given focus to externalities
13 min – people say ‘it’s the climate people’.. it’s not them.. we’ve all been living a lie.. this is not a finger pointing moment because we’re all implicit.. the systemic problem.. if we carry on we will exterminate ourselves.. we are creating greater harm than the value..t
thurman interconnectedness law: when you understand interconnectedness it makes you more afraid of hating than of dying – Robert Thurman
14 min – sarah: that’s what you mean by entanglement
yeah .. and there’s no one to blame.. there’s no other.. biggest realization we have to make is that there’s no other.. how do we move forward..t
us & them ness and thurman interconnectedness law
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
15 min – my intuition.. i don’t think there’s a pathway of viable collapse available to us.. social breakdown happens much earlier than environ breakdown.. we will unleash a form of violence.. we are unleashing the othering.. the level of violence that will unleash in this process.. any collapse leads to extermination.. so i don’t have a scenario right now.. any i’ve been a part of you end up in a run away.. so i think only choice we have available.. is some form of pathway.. slingshot econ transition.. slingshot maneuvers at speed.. not a mild transition.. otherwise we’ll break down..t
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
need to try the unconditional part of left to own devices ness..
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. the unconditional part of left-to-own-devices ness.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
19 min – sarah: so you’re saying we don’t have luxury of slow.. no in between
why i think no longer a choice but a duty.. 1\ self extermination and other is 2\ (?).. forks in road.. i don’t know how you stop people with addictive systems we live in
need a global detox leap
21 min – i just don’t know where it sits..
22 min – sarah: there’s an urgency to way you speak..
i’m talking about w/in next 10-15 yrs..
we need w/in next year..
23 min – sarah: you’re first to say it’s this dire.. that we’re this close.. not a can we kick down the road.. so look at dark matter labs.. thought experiments geared toward systems change that we could try
24 min – dark matter came from convos.. ‘dark matter in trojan horses’.. under implied world ie: table, et al.. is logic.. that piece of structure is creating behavior that is driving the curve.. there was a time when dark matter was diff.. so focus on tones that go toward a diff way of being
been in sea world since forever.. hari rat park law
26 min – ie of dark matter: an urban tree in city is a cost.. benefits of tree not counted for.. so plant male trees.. low maintenance cost.. but.. male trees more polen.. higher level asthma.. so plant trees that lower health care cost et al .. how dark matter is coding our built environ
28 min – sarah: so dark matter are things we don’t see but upon which everything is built.. so program you’re looking at on trees.. giving nature own sense of agency.. so how to adopt in this sling shotting way
29 min – about building something when understanding infrastructure.. ie: cultural investment, collective intell.. that’s first horizon
oi.. any form of m\a\p as cancerous distraction.. need to zoom our more.. to legit root of problem
30 min – need to move to self sovereignty.. seeing world (trees) as agent.. a means to do w complexity.. when i don’t know.. reanimate world.. this agent placed world allows us to deal in complexity.. so relationship between me and tree is one of care
32 min – typologies of investment we need on critical common goods.. these are collective common goods we need to invest in..t
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature as global detox/re\set.. so we can org around legit needs.. otherwise spinning our wheels in whac-a-mole-ing ness of sea world
33 min – sarah: this reps such a major brain shift.. this re agentification.. this is way brains could even fathom way
not major enough – again.. root of problem
34 min – moving from ‘power over’ theories of dominion/control/intractability (?).. this is an emancipation of world/humans.. an emancipation thesis.. have to move from power over to being in care w world.. our B capacities have moved us from being world of static to parametric to dialogic..
37 min – i’ve been called in past to (assemblies) as entertainment.. gone from that to opening up a board mtg..
39 min – we do a lot of work with real world asset holders..
40 min – sarah: so first people to talk to are ins co’s
yeah.. 2nd is security.. as world becomes more volatile.. every convo is now security/econ .. security is about protectionism.. realize needs to move security to systems lense.. 3rd cohort is central bankers.. and 4th.. on the ground where communities can see effects if costs are going up health declining.. so politics increasing at ground level.. those are the 4 constituents
oi.. again.. still just spinning our wheels in and so perpetuating whac-a-mole-ing ness of sea world
again.. legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
need to try the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. ie: a sabbatical ish transition
45 min – sarah: what would be a sling shot scenario/mech
46 min – i can see 4 option pathways.. not all of us will be happy w all but will probably need all 1\ us pathway – 200bn invested into gen ai.. et al.. machine learning.. et al.. (sarah: which is more of same)
still whalespeak indy
48 min – i don’t agree with it but important to see what they’re doing.. i hope we’ll see 2\ europe – human capital driven approach.. can create cascading command for diff econ
need oikos (the economy our souls crave).. ‘i should say: the house shelters day-dreaming, the house protects the dreamer, the house allows one to dream in peace.’ – gaston bachelard, the poetics of space
50 min – europe can take line down this route as us can.. will cascade into transitions.. why need to reimagine.. i think new econ is post labor
52 min – shift to intangibles (caring, ideas..) econ.. material econ decline.. i think there’s work to be done here.. greatest debate is who is really talking about next human capacities.. who’s taking this out to next level.. ie: iain mcgilchrist.. but need to go beyond that.. what are infra for releasing human capacity
53 min – 3\ carbon (something).. final most interesting for me 4\ amazon in steroids.. eco civ.. working in synthesis w eco .. from psychedelics et al..
54 min – biggest challenge.. over last 20 yrs.. diminished our value of human in econ.. permit self termination.. we value capital but not labor.. unless what we can up value of what it means to be human.. we’re on path of dark matter.. we need all these pathways working together
56 min – sarah: i can’t id any 4 as giving value to being human.. so sling shot to what?
i think they are starting positions.. enable us to where we see agency in everything.. so diff relationship
58 min – what we need is those portfolios futures being created around the world.. simultaneously.. and diffusion happening rapidly.. to open up all these capacities.. this is no longer a nice transition
oi
59 min – what are our counter positions.. what we’ve tried.. product replacement.. this is why i use ‘sling shot’ have to build momentum and build it back in.. in momentum we haven’t understood
ie: nonjudgmental expo labeling
1:00 – trying to get to world where planet is self aware and conscious..
again.. need global detox leap for that
humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..
1:01 – sarah: going to be better.. but interim (bad) .. so people looking for way to handle it.. what should they be doing in the mean time.. i say.. ie: send kids to scouts..
need to try a sabbatical ish transition
1:02 – build new skills/institutions/investment-structures.. we’re literally looking at practical side of rebuilding resilience.. get foundational econs solid and rebuilt
oi.. but those ‘foundational’ econs are not legit us.. so just more cancerous distraction
1:03 – food water energy.. 2\ human development .. the politics of freedom.. radically human.. every person should be understanding what it means to be human and standing there..
1:05 – what is new type of machines.. not in control.. from control to learning econ.. fundamental diff
if ‘learning’ ness.. then still control ness
1:06 – problem is not the copper but the extraction cost rates..
problem is missing pieces.. until we infra around those.. won’t get to graeber stop at enough law et al
1:07 – so this is quite a foundational transformation
rather.. same song.. go (listen) deeper man
1:08 – i think you’re doing most important thing.. making comprehension.. if minded to build things in terms of real world.. i’d say food system.. fin tools behind them.. our whole chain of values need to be rebuilt..
1:10 – going to have to break zero sum trap.. t
something we haven’t yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. ie: a sabbatical ish transition
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
1:11 – on long horizon i think we’re going to make this thru.. on geo horizon about planet becoming aware.. and i think we’re on geo time scale.. on immediary time scale.. this is going to be bloody hard.. 3rd horizon.. i’m afraid of the day to day violence we’re now unleashing.. the level of everyday aggression.. the systemic othering violence
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be you. 