jordan on (end of) strategy
The End of Strategy – with Jordan Hall – 75 min video – sept 2024 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnR2PYtLLnI]:
I had a wonderful time talking with Jordan Hall, who has recently converted to Christianity from a secular worldview. We talk about his conversation, societal engineering, artificial intelligence, and the fundamental distinction between vertical and horizontal qualities. We also talk about the problem of delusion, how to know what’s real, the meaning of faith and memory, using technology safely, and not getting lost in our daily life problems.
jordan (green)hall on (end of) strategy via michel bauwens tweet [https://x.com/mbauwens/status/1833786175175459072]:
I enjoyed this conversation:
* The End of Strategy – Jonathan Pageau talks with Jordan Hall
https://youtu.be/CnR2PYtLLnI?si=WaA2REALqHWrasIf… via @YouTube
“We talk about his conversion, societal engineering, artificial intelligence, and the fundamental distinction between vertical and horizontal qualities. We also talk about the problem of delusion, how to know what’s real, the meaning of faith and memory, using technology safely, and not getting lost in our daily life problems.”
also via jonathan pageau tweet (actually @jgreenhall repost of @PageauJonathan)[https://x.com/PageauJonathan/status/1833204746494136633]:
The End of Strategy.
I had a wonderful time talking with Jordan Hall about his conversion to Christianity. We also discuss the fundamental difference between vertical and horizontal qualities, artificial intelligence, how to avoid delusion, the actual meaning of faith, how to use technology safely, and more!
Also available on the Symbolic World podcast. https://youtu.be/CnR2PYtLLnI
notes/quotes from 75 min video:
4 min – [q: Has your thinking changed regarding strategizing about societal engineering?] ear now hears tone.. exited the realm where the concept of strategy is applicable or viable.. or heading there rapidly
huge.. unjustifiable strategy ness
6 min – let’s just talk about the tension between ai and the human mind that thinks that it is something like ai.. arc of enlightenment where human becoming more like machines.. ie: people’s jobs were to do math.. to calculate.. then replaced by tech calculators.. common place.. situations where human converted to mediocre machine..t and we think.. ok.. what are more advanced things like software engineer or dr.. and we’re like.. wait a minute.. that’s just a more sophisticated mediocre machine.. because as we accelerate toward ai we notice that ai can kind of do that and maybe kind of better.
8 min – so now we have this problem.. is the thing i have to do is race faster than ai so i can stay ahead .. before i become nothing as (ai) consumes all human activity.. or .. there’s a vertical dimension.. that is completely diff.. modally in nature.. which is .. not just part of which is human.. but is actually more human.. vastly more human.. and of which ai has no relationship at all..t so that’s like one ie of this notion
yeah that.. huge.. what tech can’t do ness..
but even more..notice what tech can do that we can’t.. ie: tech w/o judgment
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. the unconditional part of left-to-own-devices ness.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it ie: a sabbatical ish transition
9 min – pageau: why the dream of ai becoming more than human is muddled.. the reason why you do things is vertical.. *ai doesn’t have (vertical) access to the reason to do it (whatever) itself.. at least in the current state.. it will **always be a derivative of human
*to me.. that’s itch-in-the-soul ness.. that we need to be listening to.. non hierarchical listening ness..
**yeah.. i don’t know.. to me.. not derivative of at least as we are now (whales in sea world).. we seem incapable of non judge\ment.. but a non thinking/feeling machine can do that.. and is just what we need (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) for listening to itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday and using that as data to connect us
9 min – right.. and there’s nothing in the current trajectory that will change that current state.. although who knows..
well.. we have the means.. but yeah.. no one has yet tried it.. to change the trajectory.. humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync.. for (blank)’s sake
when ai has done something that looks like art.. what it’s done is *bricolage.. it’s taken something manifested by human and combine them in a way that is so sophisticated as a combination.. that the artistic element that was in the substrate that was manipulated.. is there.. and of course to the human eye.. that looks at it and applies its **pattern recognizing capacity to it and that connects.. but the thing.. the thing that is the art.. the connection to the transcendant.. which is what art is.. is just sort of strictly not available
perhaps **this is a whales‘ thing.. a current state thing.. rather than a legit free human thing (black science of people/whales law) – meaning.. we have no idea what legit free people are like.. are they bound to patterns?.. to seeing things as patterns? to me that’s too confining for the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
need legit art (by day/light) and sleep (by night/dark) as global re\set.. to fittingness (undisturbed ecosystem)
10 min – pageau: i think one of the problems in that domain is that we have forgotten what art is for.. the reason.. but even in ai.. we are the ones telling ai what to make.. so still the vertical
but perhaps.. back to jordan’s initial comments.. (on the how the ear now hears tone).. we aren’t capable in our current state of that vertical ness (that non hierarchical listening).. so not actually feeding it to ai.. (and on the end of strategy).. perhaps the whole idea of feeding vertical ness to ai would be irrelevant.. would make no sense.. we’d have no reason/desire.. et al
11 min – pageau: danger.. we can give power to any thing from veritical.. there are mediocre people.. there are things i want that should be ordered properly.. then have problem
whoa.. and jordan agrees..
13 min – good bridge.. feels like this is an interesting.. confession.. the way i was dealing w spinning out.. rate of agency feeding back on itself.. intensity.. the thing i was really worried about till about 2-3 yrs ago.. if trying to figure out how to respond to set of contexts where you can’t quite predict what you’re dealing with.. you have to look for strategies that are variant under more/more possible contexts
ooof.. respond? predict? strategy?
15 min – what are the most invariant/fundamental/eternal.. intrinsic.. not bound to playing out of time.. notice they have structure..
16 min – if want to find a way to navigate.. has to be equiv to magnitude of current state.. which is magnitudes more than it’s ever been.. i couldn’t get there.. so needed help.. got a book.. found that top stack was christianity.. in the gatherings.. something going on mysterious..t no strategy/principle could figure it out .. and indeed kills it.. then found.. it’s the highest of the high.. this is the logical.. logos.. conclusion of that work .. nothing about abandonment or nonsense..
i think that is key.. (to the extent we can really do it in sea world).. but the mysterious ness of the dance.. that we’re able to do because of his unconditional love.. and that i think we’d all image (in his image) if we were legit free.. to me can happen.. can be restored if we uncover our missing pieces.. and trusted that all we need is already on each heart..
so again.. the huge ness of how we gather in a space.. need spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices (of proper vs not et al) of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
need to try the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. to get to that garden-enough ness
ie: a sabbatical ish transition
19 min – [what is it] (the top of the stack) being in the presence of god.. to notice that that means something .. for me 1\ interior faculties.. reading, thinking, talking.. w focus on trinity 2\ going back to church/community/communion.. noticed a quality of capital p presense.. situational shifted to relational.. community shifted to communion
25 min – recognition that there is a proper way of learning.. to distinguish between this thing we call ed.. learn from experience.. like a child
oi
26 min – faith in contemp world largely means max degen delusion.. but means the embodied form of relationship.. a cultivated thing
28 min – on practicing trust.. so that faith can hold this possibility.. that’ what we’re called to to do these higher order activities..
yeah.. i don’t know.. i think that’s verging on takes a lot of work ness.. and not how the unconditional part of left to own devices ness works
30 min – pageau: people against you would say the relationship is idiosyncratic and cannot be trusted.. so if mode of being thru trust..
31 min – on zooming in and out of fractal ness to get at (details of understanding).. trust is upstream of truth.. memory is a spiritual act.. all we think is category of truth is really category of trust.. you’re trusting your memory..
to me.. he’s still bringing in too much.. and that intellectness is cancerous distraction
35 min – contemplate 1st person experience.. 100% of that able to id as true is part of 1s person category we call feelings.. but be careful.. have to valorize that.. certainly don’t mean willy/nilly of emotion.. it’s part of the incarnation of the 2nd person.. so we can mentally be in same space.. have to get to the level to have that level of precision..
oi.. valorize.. willy nilly.. too much control here.. have to let go of trying to explain everything.. esp in terms of whalespeak
38 min – what does it mean to get in between relationship of temporal and eternal..
to me.. if legit free.. irrelevant s.. too busy w the dance
39 min – there’s a way of thinking about this properly.. stop thinking and start relating.. when ask to explain.. kind of no.. just have to do it.. ontology of faith is of a diff order..
graeber can’t know law et al
40 min – pageau: group w people who has faith in wrong thing.. wrong person/car.. so have false religions.. engaging all the mechs of trust/faith but something leading it ari
42 min – the way that shows up is when we replace faith with faith generated by ideology.. aren’t able to be in relationships by cultivating our competence.. imagine how that looks.. ie: kids age 5-6 beginning to ride a bike.. they will tell a lot of stories about how to ride a bike but can’t actually do it.. easy to tell yourself a story.. but the reality of engaging w reality a diff thing
44 min – the more you live in a culture where engagement of reality is important.. less you’ll engage in problems.. but if live where telling story is good enough or have people to do the things.. competence w reality or ability to manipulate other people..
46 min – distinction between certainty and competence.. imagine indigenous group in a drought.. only 2 old people have had experience w/it.. that’s a mature relationship with the fact.. so old people get together and deposit highest level of wisdom.. and group makes decisions on basis.. that’s the reality of how humans do this.. ever.. not going to have math to solve it.. what happens if just youth when no one has depth of experience in complex reality..
whoa.. disagree there.. maté not yet scrambled law et al
48 min – this thing called wisdom.. this thing called making good choices.. is not a thing.. and i have to make sure i’m not being bamboozled.. we’re very far away of having embodiment of wisdom in complex choices
deeper than that man.. we’re so close (on each heart) of itch-in-the-soul.. aka: curiosity over decision making
51 min – (acquiring maturity) pageau: how to do that today.. how can we navigate in that field
52 min – all we keep doing is adolescent.. and there’s a verticality called maturity.. diff realm.. imagine talking to 16 yr old boy.. still thinking about decisions on basis on .. is he going to get into trouble.. that isn’t the right way to think about it.. you know it’s right .. because you touched the hot stove and it was hot.. if do it other way around.. you don’t know anything.. it’s a rule following.. you have to cultivate wisdom.. you have to touch the hot thing.. you have to live life.. make mistakes.. how life is and how it works.. not just because old.. elder means you have suffered w complexity and able to be in closer relationship w reality
*to me.. that’s irrelevant to the dance
55 min – to be in communion is to have the ability to have a coherent relationship w other people’s perspective which increases your capacity to have a mature relationship w reality geometrically.. immune system to bs gets stronger
oi.. this is all based on knowing things.. not trust.. not love..
need bachelard oikos law to be in a space for the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
57 min – pageau: on confession getting down to dumbest most humiliating thoughts.. that smack down brings you closer to wisdom.. there’s a safety in confession because priest can’t tell..t
what we need is the safety of the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
ie: bachelard oikos law – the house protects the dreamer so he can hear itch-in-the-soul 1st thing everyday.. and tech as nonjudgmental expo labeling to listen to itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & use that data to connect us.. that’s where we get back/to the mystery/magic of how to gather in a space
58 min – bring people who are highest level now in develop psych, ed.. in to design optimal learning environ.. turns out will design like best practices in church.. ie: confession, communion (safe space), ..
60 min – pageau: how do you find a way to use tech.. because can have people sitting in basement.. how to bridge those worlds
exactly why we need tech w/o judgment
61 min – need embodiment.. go outside and do something rather than watch youtube videos.. engage in complex life.. so what are the ingredients of living a wholesome life: 1\ prayer.. allocating time to relationship w/god and has to be a good chunk.. and in right order.. 1st thing in am .. time/order matters 2\ time spent in body/life.. going out doors 3\ time spent in relationship w others.. crazy simple.. but in contemp culture.. super hard.. so fix things.. change your car’s oil.. do carpentry.. core discipline is ability to live in core values..
to me.. time with god is 24/7 or not really.. and just doing is also iterating on bs (toward the dance)
so imagine if we.. in the city.. as the day
pageau: we know it but don’t actually do it
because so intoxicated.. need tech w/o judgment.. nonjudgmental expo labeling to facil the seeming chaos of global detox leap
and to me.. if legit free.. wouldn’t have ‘core values list’.. would just be it
67 min – (on putting out fires).. on having responsibilities.. and needing to take care of things.. problem is .. who’s making that choice
rather.. the problem is still in finite set of choices.. need a nother way.. sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
aka: need to trust us enough to not be policed by finite set of choices
72 min – you cannot master reality at all.. christian discipline at the center.. no ability to plan properly.. if think you’ve got a handle.. further away from reality.. but.. god is right there.. learn how to build faith.. confidence of being in relationship with the actual infinite.. thru complex reality
75 min – pageau: when i first listened to you was about disruption.. this is disruption but on diff level.. you can’t plan .. strategize for it
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be you. 