prometheus project
Building a State From Scratch – The Venus Project, Simon Michaux, DSPod #275 – 2:26 video – aug 2024 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fql94AQa0Q]:
simon michaux.. @SimonMichaux – simon on alt with michaux diff via unorthodox law and simon on unsustainability.. simon on solutions.. michaux dream law.. et al
venus project.. resource based economy
The Venus Project was started in the 1980s by Jacques Fresco and Roxanne Meadows with the aim of showing that it was possible to lead a more human centered existence… as long as you built outside of the capitalist market system. Over the decades, the fortunes of the project have fluctuated – from an initial burst of enthusiasm and action (Meadows and Fresco built almost all the structures on the property by hand themselves) to the grinding reality of what it means to grow a stable and vibrant community, to the immense surge of popularity just as Fresco’s life came to an end. Project members Roxanne Meadows and Nate Dinwiddie come by the show with previous guest Simon Michaux to talk about the failures and successes of the project, and what it might look like when its reborn as the framework for Michaux’s Prometheus Project.
Anastasia completed her PhD studying bioelectricity at Columbia University. When not talking to brilliant people or making movies, she spends her time painting, reading, and guiding backcountry excursions. Shilo also did his PhD at Columbia studying the elastic properties of molecular water. When he’s not in the film studio, he’s exploring sound in music. They are both freelance professors at various universities.
via michel bauwens tweet [https://x.com/mbauwens/status/1830544370287927456]:
THIS IS IMPORTANT AND SHOULD BE ON YOUR RADAR:
* The Prometheus project for a resource-managed economy
The Venus Project may have introduced the very important concept of a resource-based economy, a economy where you can see and manage the flows of matter and energy, but had no transition strategy, and the local utopian community never took off.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venus_Project]: The Venus Project is a 501(c) nonprofit organization founded by architect and social engineer Jacque Fresco. Fresco, along with his partner Roxanne Meadows, founded this project with a socioeconomic model to develop a resource-based economy for human beings utilizing technology
But Simon Michaux, in his work on a Resource-Managed Economy has done just that.
[https://www.simonmichaux.com/]: I am developing a plan to transform our relationship between energy, minerals,and industrialization, as the existing proposed strategic plans are shown to be logistically impractical.
Now, in a important convergence, the new generation of leaders at the Venus Project and Michaux, are planning a major utopian project, THE PROMETHEUS PROJECT
* Building a State From Scratch – From the Venus Project, to the Prometheus project by Simon Michaux, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fql94AQa0Q]
notes/quotes from video:
anastasia: today talking utopian projects.. venus project 1970s: build a new system of living.. built alt architectural structures that allowed people to exist w/in them diff.. like all utopian projects they ran into a lot of complications..
there’s issues of org of people, org resources,..
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature as global detox/re\set.. so we can org around legit needs
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..
ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
a: simon was excited because seemed directly in line w his resource based vision.. the purple transition.. simon is using the framework of the venus project to kick start what he calls the prometheus project which is a much much larger iteration of what was attempted in venus florida
1 min – shilo: invited simon back.. he said.. no talk to these other people who are inspiration for prometheus .. pp is the specific solution sets that are addressed w purple transition.. to this flag ship city.. just hinting at these today.. mostly we’ll look at history of what’s come before
2 min – a: interesting convo just from standpoint of understanding what has worked and what hasn’t.. and what have been challenges so far for producing an alt social system for people to exist w/in the larger context of whatever capitalist econ you want to call our current system.. he’s planning to put together in s america.. 10 000 people in completely circular econ.. run completely diff way than way we have cities org’d today.. our goal is to understand history of venus project to see where it worked/hadn’t and what next level of iteration needs to happen in order to push people into a new form of living
need a nother way.. sans any form of m\a\p (ie: pushing people) to see/try the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. otherwise we’ll keep spinning our wheels in same song
3 min – a: simon says repeatedly.. systems are born while the existing systems seem like the only possible paradigm.. and we’re really curious about that because seems like everybody in our society is burdened by the difficulty of living w/in it..
..so anyone offering an alt while also having an eye on the limitations of what actually is possible is very interesting to us
5 min – a: i would assume most people have sense of what is goal for specific changes to way we org society
need conditions for the unconditional part of left to own devices ness.. which to me is most serious toward ‘what is actually possible’.. even though we keep not trying it
6 min – roxanne meadows: jacque went on a quest for the diff.. and lived his entire life ferociously to find alt.. he felt cap/money system was causing.. so in order to find a diff method.. can’t be w/in anything that exists today.. because that goal is for accumulating wealth/property/power… for jacque was well being of people/environ.. so his goals/aims completely diff.. so to him everything had to change..
9 min – a: next part was details of venus – but not typical podcast convo.. that starts about 1 hour in
10 min – nate: on jacque.. people throw into blender to get 70% of jacque: james randy – magician, george carlin – ruthlessly honest, paul sagan – sci popularizer, richard dawkins – atheism, chris (?) – tech, socrates – improv explore, nietzshe, hg wells, bf skinner – human behavior, fuller – design, alan watts – out of box, charismatic.. get approx of fresco.. grew up in time of innovation.. after ww1.. huge optimism.. human potential endless.. most significant in his life – great depression.. was at heart of it in ny.. ie: parents selling children.. 100s of 1000s sleeping in empty lots.. he’s a teen.. stark contrast.. shocked his conscience.. so rest of life work towards change.. saw diff perspectives of how society could be org’d.. parents could afford to feed kids.. so kids run away to work.. what jacque did.. when live not knowing what going to eat next day..
40 min – move to venus
45 min – venus vision/beginnings
48 min – r: for tech – need change in values and social direction in order to change things (rather than high tech houses et al)
51 min – r: vision for resource based.. using tech to help expand caring capacity.. to eliminate boring/dangerous jobs..
57 min – r: met simon after jacques death in 2017.. jacque said survey to help access in design .. simon came to conclusion as well we needed a new paradigm to manage resources.. he did the rigorous work of a survey to find out what we had.. ie: to meet energy needs get off coal, oil, gas
59 min – r: simon brings in a lot of tech approach and how to accomplish that
1:02 – n: always big question.. how do we get from here to there.. work w simon best answer so far
need to try the whatever ness (the unconditional part of left to own devices ness) of a sabbatical ish transition
1:03 – on people building cities from scratch
1:04 – n: until have sci to design cities.. yeah.. has to be organic.. have to balance design and evolution
rather.. need a means for global detox leap.. othwrise think you need ie: design/evolution
1:06 – simon: designed or organically.. both.. circular econ as how society handles resources.. turns out.. great way to raise funding but circular econ fail.. hierarchy of tasks in city .. 1st task is not to find food/water.. it’s to find employment.. priority of time diff.. historically people living in city has been an after thought venus project was to turn this around..
go with *quality of life of people in city first.. to survive long term.. needs reason to be.. money as problem
*aka: org around legit needs
1:09 – a: even if remove money still stuck w energy/resources.. have to feed/house people .. exchange is we will do something useful and get profits to import goods/resources.. so a city that’s self sustaining is a severe shift of way people live..
1:10 – simon: that’s idea of resource based econ.. we will manage our resources
makes no diff if don’t grok legit needs first..
1:11 – simon: i’m now out on a limb where there is no one else..
1:13 – simon: combo of tech but also what do we do w tech.. which is how we manage our resources
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
1:14 – r: we were popular at time of zietgest films.. but we weren’t ready for that explosion.. maybe ready now.. need to put this in by building something to show something and simon ready for that too.. a lot talk about what is not working but don’t come up w feasible plan to try something diff.. now might have more of a chance to do that
ie: a sabbatical ish transition
1:17 – shilo: no higher cost than building city..
simon: at time thought zietgeist films great.. but i saw all these problems and didn’t see how venus would solve them.. but now .. can combine many tribes w/o any compromise.. venus missing steps of how to navigate around some of existing problems.. we couldn’t articulate them.. ie: monetary problem, .. venus was decades ahead of its time.. practical problems can now be discussed
zeitgeist movement.. the zeitgeist movement.. peter joseph
try/code money (any form of measuring/accounting/people telling other people what to do) as the planned obsolescence ..where legit needs are met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring..ie: sabbatical ish transition
1:19 – simon: about funds.. need to build small city of 10 000.. need somewhere 1-3 billion us dollars.. most of that money will go to developing industrial pilot scale sites and tech develop.. actually project 800 mill and 1.2 b..
what if that’s already done.. if only we could talk
simonpetermichaux@gmail.com from his site – going to talk in 2 days.. cool
1:20 – shilo: and how do you attract people to that.. if self sustaining not investing for own growth outside project
needs to be something org’d around what all the people already crave/desire/are-missing
ie: a sabbatical ish transition
simon: 2 ways to do this 1\ kick off for grass roots funding to get us going.. people who would engage with us and volunteer ideas help next step go better 2\ get capital.. use tools of this world to build next world.. not going to build something like a nuclear reactor w/o capital.. so need to attract people for that..
1:21 – simon (to attract people to deliver capital) ie: 1\ legacy impact investor that wants to see humanity change.. wants to be associated with that.. lot of money out there looking for that place to land.. know how bad system is.. if show plan on ground that’s considered credible.. may get too much money 2\ royalty streams on what you produce .. might take 20 yrs to get there.. what i’m proposing is industrial permaculture.. raw materials from local (this is circular).. use to manufacture cool stuff.. sell to rest of market.. revenue used to run city.. once past running cost.. rest directed back to investors as royalties..
need #1.. but with no strings.. if going with 2.. not a legit leap.. for (blank)’s sake
1:23 – simon: 1st tier: *necessities: accommodation, electrical power, water, sewer, ed, healthcare, food, .. **all of that part of living in city and don’t pay money for that
*those are not deepest needs
if still managing when get to those needs.. not free enough..
if org around legit needs.. the unconditional part of left to own devices ness kicks in .. and everything else takes care of itself..
this is huge.. wish you could hear/see it
**again.. need to try/code money (any form of measuring/accounting/people telling other people what to do) as the planned obsolescence from get go.. where legit needs are met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring..ie: sabbatical ish transition
1:24 – simone: 2nd tier: *everyone gets paid a conventional wage.. so everyone **has what need to wealth.. can do whatever with money.. ***can leave city any time they want and interact w outside world.. not dependent on job for survival..
*now just blew any hopes for legit freedom.. 10-day-care-center\ness et al
**so.. same song.. wealth from money.. oi.. marsh exchange law.. graeber exchange law.. any form of m\a\p
***that’s where sabbatical ish transition comes in.. need to know ok after.. if it doesn’t work et al.. but if moving in and out during (year).. then whac-a-mole-ing ness of sea world continues.. not a legit alt
1:25 – simon: not that hard to do.. because starting from scratch
a: has venus project expanded on these.. an alt econ system that runs parallel
n: i wouldn’t say so.. we are stuck in the world like everyone else.. but there is a community in venus that has.. ie: moneyless project
zachary on revolutions.. liminal village.. et al
1:27 – r: we didn’t have money to do it.. so we just showed it in books, films, etc.. zeitgeist experimented w some..
1:30 – n: a lot of the work we have been doing is ed.. that’s what jacque was about.. it’s taken a decade for some.. simon is an ie
1:31 – r: jacque’s design of the city was to conserve resources.. get 1/8 done then duplicate
1:32 – simon: plan to have research institute.. and industrial tech pilots around city.. employ some.. the city is where we all live.. create the starting seed to change how things are done.. simplify our system down while maintaining sci/tech gains.. goal: quality of life and longevity
1:34 – r: was built for 40.. 3 now.. [a asking if could bring 40 in to pilot for the city]..
1:36 – shilo: raising billion for 10 000 city seems difficult.. so trying with 40 first for proof first?
1:38 – simon: pitch a tent and run thoreum.. then will change.. lots of diff venus projects.. marching to diff drum..
i’m proposing something to change tech building blocks behind the city.. those blocks will change how the city comes together.. email.. t
how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us.. ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
10 000 is the ceiling.. but plan i put together happens in stages.. ie: 1st 15 people..
1:39 – simon: we need the ability to react in face of volatility. so depends on funding how much of plan hits the ground.. certain tasks to secure long term platform.. then ability to put structural things like making new social contract
a: that usually goes disastrous.. right..
1:40 – simon: every.. over 1000 hippie communes and they all failed.. amish have done better.. so hoping to operate on 3 fronts: 1\ industry/tech 2\ re establish new relationship w environ 3\ develop new social contracts.. hoping on 3rd to do game theory led by someone of daniel sch’s caliber..
1:41 – simon: once that person has that position secured.. hand them game theory.. what needs to be in place for new social contract to survive..
need to org around legit needs
1:42 – n: starting w less than 100 at beginning… venus not ideal for expansion.. need some criteria for land to make it more strategically/ethically advantageous
ok.. so on the ground ness.. ready for at least 1000..
1:43 – simon: we have 9 steps and we’re between 1 and 2,.. got to get plan to point of maturity to talk to others that would say yes this is reasonable.. we will make equiv of 3-4 office blocks with accommodation,, around that pilot scale engineering plants.. so far haven’t said anything unreasonable.. and so far describing small mining org.. what do buildings look like, what jobs do everyone take.. we’re seeking a new ism.. so looking where others have done well/bad
will just be same song if still ie: ‘what jobs everyone take’..
again.. on the ground ness
1:47 – a: what charter would bind people together.. like amish have.. game theory is interesting but falls apart w irrational actors
simon: at heart is strong vibrant community together by choice working toward same goal.. bring people together for a purpose
1:48 – a: asking on zoning r: 1 resident/5 acres.. 10 building
a: seems social should be set in place first foremost.. what it looks like when people try to institute a utopian system..
r: this is nothing to do w utopian.. this is more of people who want to tackle problems we have today.. no such thing as utopia (nowhere).. these are a group of people who have to have enough understanding about culture what’s going on and so dedicated to be there
1:50 – a: have you guys looked at biosphere 2 project much.. seems if take a group of people even massively driven to goal.. when stress.. fall apart.. because of social contract .. so what is simplest form of practicing social contract on small scale.. dependent on the one visionary.. anywhere we visited a place where founder had died.. they were in dyer straights.. so what is smallest possible pilot program..
1:52 – simon: we will start out as a private company w a job to do.. we’ll have a series of jobs to do .. running in parallel.. start discussions on how to move to diff society.. reason.. sci/tech that runs in parallel that we’ve already got.. before going lord of flies.. say ‘fail fail.. back to corners’
2:05 – a: very productive.. because home.. but miss people (paraphrase)
why we need it to be all of us.. for (blank)’s sake
2:06 – simon: so we’re building tools for the future 10 000
only tool you need if you want the dance to dance: tech as it could be.. using nonjudgmental expo labeling to org/facil the seeming chaos of legit free people.. of the unconditional part of left to own devices ness
2:16 – simon: ie: as long range plan we’re going to be founding a university.. what form does that take.. this comes from idea of professor managing students and having eye for what a student actually wants to do.. not what they’re told to do
need global detox leap for that..
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
2:21 – simon to nathan – you’re going to need to be replicated.. you’re going to be stretched so thin
simon: in a few sentences.. an evolution of venus project.. powered by mature energy source for new paradigm.. more responsible to planet.. and new social contract of how we might live.. new manufacture paradigm.. where tools human in equilib..
oi.. too much man
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be you. 