jason and branko on degrowth
jason hickel and branko milanovic on degrowth
via museum of care email thread in regard to bull/batshit jobs.. this link via christian (email/context from him bottom of page) [https://degrowth.info/library/the-illusion-of-degrowth-in-a-poor-and-unequal-world]
[also added david on batshit ness from same email thread]
notes/quotes from (1 of 4) links w/in link [https://glineq.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-illusion-of-degrowth-in-poor-and.html] – from globalinequality (2017) – The illusion of “degrowth” in a poor and unequal world – by Branko Milanovic:
This is just an attempt to present some back-of the-envelope *calculations that should be improved very much in a serious attempt to examine the alternatives.
*if still calculating.. not legit alt.. and so.. cancerous distraction.. for (blank)’s sake
..The “problem” is that the median after-tax income in the West (about $14,600 per person per year) is at the 91st percentile of the global income distribution. Clearly, if we let 90 percent of people increase their incomes to that level, th..
fof math and men.. killing us softly with its same song
..The increase in their relative prices would cut real income of the rich (who consume them) and would reduce, even if slightly, global inequality. Obviously, we need to think about how new technologies can be harnessed to make the world more environment-friendly. But degrowing is not the way to go.
to me.. any de/anti/refusal.. is just perpetuating sea world.. but today.. there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of m\a\p
notes/quotes from (2 of 4) links w/in link [https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2017/11/19/why-branko-milanovic-is-wrong-about-de-growth] – (2020) – DEGROWTH: A RESPONSE TO BRANKO MILANOVIC – by jason hickel:
Milanovic’s vision here suffers from a number of empirical and analytical flaws. Let me try to explain some of them:
1. World average GDP is not dystopic; it is poorly distributed and poorly utilized
But all of this is ultimately irrelevant to the question at hand, because:
2. Degrowth is not about reducing GDP; it’s about resources and energy
rather.. it’s about the need to org around legit needs.. otherwise spinning wheels in same song
Crucially, excess resource and energy use *is being driven by rich nations, not poor nations. So, rich nations need to reduce their resource and energy use
rather.. by us being in sea world (to the ridiculous ness of calling out jason for unreal ness).. and so.. perpetuating same song.. so hari rat park law
And this brings me to the next point:
3. When it comes to human well-being, counting GDP is irrelevant
*What actually matters for human well-being is provisioning – in other words, people’s access to the **resources they need to live long, healthy, flourishing lives. ***The reason GDP is an unsuitable metric here is because it only counts a very narrow slice of economic activity; specifically, that which has to do with commodity exchange-value. It does not count all forms of provisioning; in fact, much of the provisioning we rely on is totally ignored by, and irrelevant to, GDP.
*not as along as we’re still in sea world.. ie: need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
**this is our problem deep enough .. we have no idea what legit free people need (ie: missing pieces)
***rather.. because it’s a metric.. legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of m\a\p
4. It’s not income itself that counts; it’s the welfare purchasing power of income
literacy and numeracy both elements of colonialism/control/enclosure.. we need to calculate differently and stop measuring things..
this is why we haven’t yet gotten to global equity (via christian.. haven’t seen any movement work/yet)
5. Degrowth does not seek to scale down all sectors; just unnecessary and destructive ones
In an actual degrowth scenario, the goal would be to scale down ecologically destructive and socially less necessary production (what some might call the exchange-value part of the economy), while protecting and indeed ev
still a cancerous distraction if we don’t org around legit needs
6. Green growth is not a thing
Milanovic believes that technology will come to our rescue, and make growth “green”.
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of m\a\p
In sum, it is irrational to hope, against the evidence, *that our existing economic system will deliver the development outcomes we want while at the same time reversing ecological breakdown. We need to be smarter than that. Degrowth provides an empirically-informed alternative: a pathway to reducing excess resource and energy use while at the same time ensuring flourishing lives for all. **Given the stakes of the crisis we face, we should be open to fresh thinking.
*not a legit alt if de or anti or whatever.. those are all cancerous distractions that keep us in the not-us/sea world/bs jobs from birth et al cycle..
**indeed.. but even when we say that.. we’re stilling doing the cling\ness thing..
notes/quotes from (3 of 4) links w/in link [https://glineq.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-illusion-of-degrowth-part-ii.html] – from globalinequality (2017) – The illusion of degrowth: Part II – by Branko Milanovic:
I do not think that this program is illogical. It is just so enormous, outside of anything that we normally can expect to implement, that it verges, I am afraid, on absurdity. It is simply impossible to put in practice, not only in democracies, but probably in North Korea either
rather.. not small is {ginormous} enough
It is irrelevant whether I like or dislike this situation (as Jason seems to believe). It is just that I observe how the world functions while Jason appears to me to live in an unreal world. If he looked at the real world he would have seen that up to 50 immigrants from Sudan are often ..
again.. jason ness.. still not deep enough.. but saying ‘if he looked at real world’ is part of the problem.. we need something legit diff.. something unreal to our eyes
So his program may in words be accepted by those who would have travelled 10,000 miles to attend the conference where the program is presented; who would use AC while sitting in the conference hall and eat meat during the conferences meals, but they too would not vote for it.
if still talking voting ness.. already cancerous distraction
For if the proponents of such a program really believed in it, *they should start (or should have already started) a political movement that would promise to implement it and save the planet. **They should explicitly promise continuous annual income declines of several percentage points, lower wages, pensions and social transfers, a work week of 20 hours or fewer, closure of most gas stations and many airports, home production of key food items, picketing of factories that work longer hours or supermarkets that sell meat. ***They should put this program on their flag and see how many people will vote for it.
*graeber model law.. year ? – a people experiment ness
**already cancerous distraction
perhaps let’s try/code money (any form of measuring/accounting) as the planned obsolescence w/ubi as temp placebo.. where legit needs are met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring..ie: sabbatical ish transition
***again.. if not already on each heart.. not yet problem deep enough
notes/quotes from (4 of 4) links w/in link [https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2017/11/22/why-branko-milanovic-is-wrong-about-degrowth-ii] – (2017) – DE-GROWTH IS FEASIBLE: PEOPLE WANT A NEW ECONOMY – by jason hickel
[this one 2017.. first from 2020?)
I do not disagree with Branko that the task is enormous; I have complete empathy with this perspective. Indeed, it is the single greatest problem of our century – how to enable human flourishing while reducing emissions and material throughput – and it demands our total focus. But let me offer three thoughts that give me hope.
today (because we have means for something legit diff).. takes a lot of work ness as red flag.. and so as cancerous distraction
1. People are not just consumption bots.
but the key here is that we’re talking whales in sea world and not legit free people.. black science of people/whales law et al.. so.. because of hari present in society law.. us whales are bots.. since forever..
2. Democracy is the answer.
Branko articulates a common worry: that the only way to degrow an economy is to have some kind of authoritarian dictatorship do it for us.
I completely disagree. Imagine: what if we had an *open, democratic conversation about what kind of economy we really want? What would the **economy look like? What kinds of objectives would it have? How would it distribute resources? The evidence I’ve cited above leads me to believe it wouldn’t be anything like our current system, with its tyrannical obsession with endless GDP growth and pro-rich resource distribution.
*any form of democratic admin.. no matter how free/nice/open it sounds.. is still perpetuating same song.. we need a legit global detox leap before any of us know/grok what we legit want/need..
**econ our souls crave (and would help/facil that detox) – bachelard oikos law
*We have never had this conversation on a mass scale, because (a) our media is controlled by a small number of mega-corporations that are structurally disinclined to fa
*yeah to convo ness at mass scale (aka: has to be all of us).. but if still about ‘this convo’ makes no diff how many are involved.. need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature as global detox/re\set.. so we can org around legit needs
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
3. There is already a movement for change.
Branko concludes on a frustrated note, saying, basically: “if you really believe in degrowth, then why don’t you try to make it happen?” He assumes that we are crying out in the wilderness, and that nobody will actually accept what we propose.
I’m not so pessimistic. But let me be clear: is there widespread public support for de-growth? Not yet. And that’s hardly surprising: as I have been at pains to point out, degrowth is structurally impossible in our existing economy. So the first step is to change the logic of the economy. And on this front the movement is surging.
The US states of Vermont and Maryland have already adopted an alternative to GDP – the Genuine Progress Indicator – and a number of European governments are considering the same. Key economists like Stiglitz and Sen support this shift, and it appears as a goal in the SDGs. As for decommoditizing social goods, there is overwhelming popular support for this in most rich nations. About debt: there is the Jubilee campaign, and the anti-debt movement among US students, and virtually everyone in Greece. And on fractional reserve banking there is Positive Money, and the Chicago Plan promoted in a recent IMF report.
all cancerous distractions.. we need to let go of any form of m\a\p
Our demands are not “absurd”, as Branko claims. What is absurd is to believe we can continue with the status quo, against the rising tide (literally) of evidence to the contrary. Fortunately, we have one thing in our favor: while it may not be possible to change the laws of physics, *it is possible to change social and economic systems – we have done it many times in the past, and we will do it again. We have to.
*we haven’t to date tried something legit diff.. only tried nicer/opener/kinder/anti-er/refusaler/whateverer versions of same song.. so yeah.. we can/have change/d social/econ systems.. but that defn of change isn’t deep enough for legit change.. isn’t deep enough to get to legit free people..
who grok how to org around legit needs
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christians email:
While I agree with your diagnosis, I have my doubts about the applicability. Short of a break-down that produces degrowth, I don’t think people are on-board for this (no matter how important). My go-to here is an exchange between Branko Milanovic and Jason Hickel from a few years back.
need a focus that each soul already craves..
https://degrowth.info/library/the-illusion-of-degrowth-in-a-poor-and-unequal-world
I think both make valid points but Milanovic ultimately is proven correct because of real world developments. Hickel went into some examples of why this is the right strategy and a lot of people basically being ok with it (he cites, Bernie, Corbyn, a few others).
That was in 2017 – all his examples for hopeful trends have been obliterated. Societies have moved ever farther to the right. Outright fascist and proto-fascist governments have taken power. I fear in 5 year most of Europe will be governed by some quasi-fascist elements. These people are all on board with infinite growth. At the same time no political or social movement in any country I know of has adopted any degrowth ideas.
because part\ial ness.. (hari rat park law) so .. same song
Again, I agree with the analysis but afaik no one has managed to translate this into any kind of movement anywhere. Happy to be proven wrong, btw.
perhaps because the analysis ness keeps getting in the way..
intellectness as cancerous distraction we can’t seem to let go of.. there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
Christian
P.S. The disease of the rich has been around for a long long time: “pleonexia” – Greek for wealth addiction
yeah.. been in sea world since forever.. this is why we need a legit global detox leap..
for (blank)’s sake
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after reading above 4 links.. i replied to email thread:
to me.. what we haven’t yet tried:
‘just a bunch of humans who contain infinite creativity, love and capabilities to build different worlds..kinda common sense and straight forward.’.. john
‘to max unexpected breakthroughs.. get a bunch of people give them resources they need.. leave them alone; to min unexpected breakthroughs.. take same people tell them they won’t get any resources unless they spend the majority of their time competing to prove they already know what they’re going to create.. one thing not scarce in world.. is imaginative people w possible solutions to intractable problems‘ david
because we keep thinking:
‘I do not disagree with Branko that the task is enormous‘ jason
so we:
‘attempt to present some back-of the-envelope calculations that should be improved very much in a serious attempt to examine the alternatives.’ branko
which circles us back around in the cycle of violence (same song):
‘when one looks a little closer, one discovers that these two elements—the violence and the quantification—are intimately linked‘ david
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be you. 