dave on abundance
70 min video of dave cormier, jeff lebow, and/as original edtechtalkers talking about dave’s book ‘Learning in a Time of Abundance’ (Introduction) – apr 2024 – [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhalE0wQKsY]
notes/quotes:
10 min – that’s the thing i’m actually talking about.. abundance.. and community is curriculum is the underlying concept of all the work i’ve been trying to do..t
bunker roy – credentialing via community et al.. dave cormier – community
john: tying to summarize dave is hard to do.. so just kept saying.. where’s the book.. the book is a diff voice.. still very much dave.. but diff that podcast.. talking things out..
12 min – dave: having somebody who trusts you enough to tell you how bad something is is essential for this kind of job
16 min – jennifer: on audience.. what is it like writing for a more general audience w same message you’ve had for years
17 min – dave: i had a few people in my head i was talking to.. complex system/concept and trying to talk to people in everyday life.. often talk about learning as removed from life.. learning is something we do automatically.. so everyone has something in everyday life where they connect to learning.. so trying to head to that..
19 min – j: i noticed your sentences were very short and i was surprised by that
dave: i was looking for this conversational.. staccato tone.. so when you read it.. you’d be fighting/agreeing with me.. so that whole other piece to it too in their mind
20 min – d: ed as a system vs learning as the thing that happens to humans .. (on cell phones recently being banned in school).. there’s no way to talk about how people learn w/o the internet
22 min – j: on abundance.. i interp as abundance of info..
dave: i fudge that throughout book.. also abundance of connection.. on exhaustion/expectation that comes with that.. ie: i spent a lot of time waiting to meet my friends.. and when friends not connecting me wasn’t happening.. so knew i wasn’t being ignored.. that connection changes things.. ie: there are people now who never learn anything for self.. they always ask someone..
25 min – j: we do have a new reality.. been doing this for 20 yrs
dave: ie’s of new realities.. ie: being a dr.. esp for emergency drs.. don’t have authority they used to have.. power structure.. ability for people to find out about things.. now if have a feeling could spend 4 hrs discussing what that feeling might be.. then all marketing ness coming your way keeps after that thought.. nothing has prep’d us for that
27 min – j: also .. what does a dr need to learn when have at disposal an ipad.. et al.. we spent countless weeks way back.. on how it is to learn.. et al
28 min – dave: just the fact that we’ve come up w/4 diff ways to look at this (new reality) is part of the problem.. before .. couldn’t have opinions about which ways it works..
29 min – d: that’s another thing we have to worry about.. a lot of the landscape of anxiety here is about how many choices people need to make.. t what do i need to read before.. et al..
huge need: try curiosity over decision making.. finite set of choices is unmooring us.. even seeming abundance of choices today.. is finite.. restricting us from us.. need a means to listen to itch-in-the-soul
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
30 min – j: so how do they learn.. what does it mean to be a good learner..
31 min – d: so most of cog sci/lit around how we should teach.. tell us to focus on background knowledge first.. that set up for learning is a set up for experts.. me learning about sci to get phd.. doesn’t work for any of the rest of us who don’t become experts.. we learn all these things w expectation that might go to expertise.. but opp cost there on deepening things that we might actually use.. ie: good chess player needs to memorize everything.. but looking to build scientists for tomorrow..
oi.. to expert in the room ness anyway.. if we had any.. would we be in the mess we’re in..? hari present in society law.. mufleh humanity law.. et al
32 min – d: whereas.. i’d like to be good w/citizens.. who can make good decisions on regular everyday things..t
oof.. again on the decision making is unmooring us.. this is just if community that is our curriculum is sea world
d: so saying that i don’t think our ed system should be designed to make drs.. we do that in dr school.. where there’s a whole lot of facty business.. though most are moving toward competency base.. the small amt we learn is same size.. while over all things to learn huge
34 min – which is not to say there are not skills we shouldn’t train people to do.. ie: suturing.. so not saying there are not skills you should train.. a subset of things useful to memorize.. but that subset is not going to help you with life as much as it used to
i would even say that.. we have to trust the dance.. the natural ness of learning to dance.. no train.. no prep.. sans any form of m\a\p
35 min – jeff: what will?
d: so life learning with the abundance.. so what we need to learn how to do.. sift thru things and decide best answer.. the more we help our students with scaffolding and structure and feedback and how they make decisions about how they learn.. the more they’re going to be prepared for dealing with all this abundance
ugh.. and yeah maybe.. but more so.. first.. we need a global detox leap so we can get back/to.. trusting what is already in us (itch-in-the-soul) as directive..
ie: no matter how much you learn to navigate et al.. 1\ most/all data to date is non legit and or irrelevant s (would legit free people even care about some of these things we spend our days researching et al) 2\ navigation ness/tools.. et al .. is always going to be changing/growing.. which leads us to perpetuating the cancerous distraction of ‘takes a lot of work‘ ness
36 min – j: i’d rather have a dr who’d good at finding the connections.. to diagnose me.. than suture well.. because.. then ai can help with best outcome..
dave: on flow chart decision making ness..
again.. whac-a-mole-ing ness of whalespeak till get out of sea world.. hari rat park law et al
38 min – dave on ai vs non ai and being more afraid of it than jeff.. then.. to back of napkin convos had with drs would tell me that if they had the chance of knowing everything or convincing patients to do what they’re told.. 100% of them said.. convince my patients to do what they’re told.. which is not something the ai system is going to do .. so to me.. the identification part is important.. but it’s really not the job
oh my.. exactly what we need tech for.. ie: nonjudgmental expo labeling
38 min – jeff: which implies they should be learning more social/negotiation skills
d: i would love that.. that would be fantastic
oh my.. need a break..
d: those kids (drs) were the ones who got 100 on everything.. got everything right.. so bring into social aspect and they’re like.. so.. what i do to get 100 on this.. so this idea of exploring their feelings.. a lot are not ready for .. and that’s hard to teach
jeff: raises question of expertise
39 min – jenn: if we have all this info out there.. who’s the expert who put it there.. how do we fact check et al
dave: that’s the hardest.. at some level we’ve always done this badly.. when i was in highschool was told to look at city of publisher.. et al.. chatpt good on filling in typing.. internet is same.. if already an expert.. not going to get tricked .. most of us.. all of us.. not expert at something.. if only tool is using expert tools.. a free fall.. fine if thing you’re looking for has a right answer.. but if.. how do we impact poverty in home city.. which is what i’d like to be looking at..
41 min – jenn: also the trusted sources piece.. we went thru that with covid.. who do we get info from
42 min – dave: the whole idea of research terrifies me.. i ask students .. did you search or research.. research is something you can do if you have expertise..
makes no diff.. if non legit data anyway (ie: data from whales in sea world)
bummer .. love these guys.. but another ie of how edgers end up pushing same song just in diff .. more obscure/kinder ways.. still (and often moreso.. because so blinded to them) cancerous distractions
dave: not about truth about values
again.. need global detox leap
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of m\a\p
43 min – dave: on flat earthers.. convincing each other still right..
44 min – jeff: i’m terrified of current mis info.. but also encouraged by it.. on neutral anal based on data.. potential to not get the answer.. but neutral info exists.. or will exist.. won’t it..
still makes no diff if flapping on and on with none legit data.. yes.. need neutrality of tech w/o judgment to get past that.. but/and until we do.. just whac-a-mole-ing ness
to me.. this is one thing tech can do that people can’t.. because of that inborn social ness..
45 min – dave: i would argue that it won’t.. that’s the dream.. but john haidt: 800 studies book about ed.. classic mass study.. then can tell you what learning is best.. but each done in diff context.. doing lots so that it levels out is true if the thing you’re counting is a counting noun.. ie: on # of mosquitos.. there is an actual number.. a real fact.. so number will balance out
46 min – dave: if you don’t believe learning can be counted.. which i don’t.. then you’re not measuring learning.. you’re measuring the way a test measures recall of something that happens in a classroom.. same with poverty.. the thing you’re going to have to measure is going to be what
jeff: policy, actions, variables, and resulting outcomes
dave: but the messiness is in all the things you didn’t tell me.. at some level.. are you counting the number of people who go to a community food place.. if so.. that might be indicative that that food place is working well.. or might be indicative that there is more poverty in that city.. so measurement you take doesn’t give you that info.. it’s a number you can count.. but it doesn’t have the context to it..
47 min – dave: that’s the problem with the meta study.. at some level.. if the thing you’re meta studying is recovery rates for people to go back to running after tear.. at some level there’s a real number in world.. which is why we do a lot of meta studies in sci/med.. but when talk about poverty i can’t have 7 poverties.. i can have number of people below poverty line.. and can measure if getting amt of money.. but then measuring money not people..
jeff: not going to be perfect but i still feel like even qualitative matters.. still useful info that can be gained.. not a definitive decision .. but.. can get to.. that’s better
dave: but better ends up being hard to know
yup.. not to mention.. this is amidst whac-a-mole-ing ness.. not about legit free people
black science of people/whales law et al
48 min – jeff: where’s your common sense young man.. you know it when you see it
again.. the need for detox leap since currently all of us are blinded.. from all the naming the colour ness
49 min – jenn: on perceived vs objective (via teacher) learning.. no correlation.. but correlation between satisfaction and perceived learning.. so all these studies on perceived learning.. they’re studying satisfaction
gray research law et al
50 min – jeff: has age of abundance made it more difficult to solve poverty.. we’ve had this problem before and now i don’t feel like it’s harder.. i feel like if anything we’ve got at least more data .. if not totally reliable and wanting in some ways
dave: 2 answers.. 1\ weber from 70s: that’s asking wrong question if want to solve poverty.. because it’s a wicked problem.. 2\ can only deal w/small problems.. asking the big question is what always gets you into trouble .. can’t solve it because can’t even agree on what it is
51 min – dave: looking at ed specifically.. it’s a nightmare.. because every single person who wants to make an argument can pull out a paper to support that.. that’s the problem with abundance.. if only looking for things to support existing position .. you can do that
again.. gray research law
53 min – dave: (to uncertainty).. we have a system where we tell students that questions have answers.. and job is to find answer person in front of you already knows.. that’s the game we are playing.. when judgment to make a decision is required.. that ability to meet uncertainty.. is what people struggle with the most.. we’ve increasingly structured ed to be analytic.. has a huge impact on way we think of learning.. ie: get right answer.. but in life.. decisions we make.. ie: should i have a cookie right now
see this is huge.. i wish you could hear me on this.. even though i’m sure you would listen.. but it’s so deep.. because.. to me.. this is still the wrong focus.. a cancerous distraction.. i don’t think legit free people would be making decisions.. the idea of embracing uncertainty et al.. would even be irrelevant s.. it would just be us.. doing/being the dance
55 min – john: we get stuck coming up with right answer.. every decision they make they have to be right.. get paralyzed by all the info on trying to decide what is right..
dave: joe rogan tells you if something is right.. that’s the appeal
john: chatpt does that too
dave: that’s the keystone.. if we prepare you for certainty and you *don’t find it .. you look for other avenues.. **as long as it tells me what i should do
*but even deeper.. khan filling the gaps law et al
**wow.. can you hear yourself.. or did i misunderstand above.. that’s what you were saying dr’s needed/wanted.. those negotiating skills for people telling other people what to do.. oi
57 min – jeff: book seems more about societal systems and moral values (than ed and tech).. this underlying tone about corp and marketing.. what is diff between instagram feeding me ads.. has it changed?
58 min – dave: tech we have shapes that.. ie: having a trusted voice can be more convincing; a slogan can make things true; .. now little things can become like that and are increasingly hidden.. not an obvious add.. built into 27 paid tick tockers.. and unpaid spreaders.. et al.. and it’s coming in subconsciously.. no longer just marketed to in house.. but everywhere.. so many more ways of slipping it in
1:00 – dave: on corp changes.. people who can be hired to push almost any agenda.. gotten more complex.. anybody who is trying to convince you of something.. wouldn’t you use the internet.. govts are in that business.. a lot of that is good.. ie: sort garbage properly.. nudge marketing.. but not all trying to do good
jeff: positive changes mean a lot of diff things to diff people.. next week to talk about ch 1
1:03 – post show.. now edit.. ha..
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be you. 