boyce and hodgson on relational econ
Economics of Social Harmony & Disfunction | with Ashley Hodgson, PhD
on benjamin @BenjaminABoyce:
“freewheeling provocateur” | author, interviewer | http://anchor.fm/calmversations
on ashley [https://www.stolaf.edu/profile/hodgsona]:
Ph.D. University of California, Berkeley 2011
B.A. Washington and Lee University, 2003
Teaching in Economics: Blockchain Economics, Healthcare Economics, Behavioral Economics, Microeconomic Theory, Game Theory, and Principles of Economics
Advising for: Health Care Administration
via michel bauwens tweet [https://x.com/mbauwens/status/1834542600642252807]:
Wow, Benjamin Boyce AND Ashley, on ‘relational economics’:
* Economics of Social Harmony & Disfunction | with Ashley Hodgson
[https://youtu.be/D27Xl2IwV1k?si=YNKQSYlUTHYv4PiG] via @YouTube
notes/quotes form 2 hr video – sept 2024:
6 min – a: econ is a flavor of a mythology in terms of how our society is structured.. how does our system work.. it manifests itself diff in diff spaces.. huge effect on how resources flow econ.. and types of mythology that get wrapped up in these power battles
7 min – b: on springfield and mythologies of haitian refugees.. looks like ngo/non govt are facil ing a lot of shaping of society.. divorced of any accountability to electoral processes and funding.. some people call it the deep state.. managerial.. deciding actual course of our country.. ngos taking place of where churches have operated.. makes me anxious that ngos have so much power in our system.. they activist class on the ground
9 min – a: trouble in this convo.. where words fall.. ie: mythology and immigrants.. when one group says something.. one side understands myth in one way.. reactionary sides pull convo away from actual issues.. i’m trying to speak in a way that doesn’t pull in one direction.. which is really hard
11 min – b: one way to avoid taking sides.. is get to the root of things.. if want to get away from dynamics of power.. get back into the roots.. you use ‘mythology’ not ‘ideology’.. why
12 min – a: mythology is embodied in ritual, 1/2 way historical thought experiments, maps pretty well onto space of econ because lot of econ is though experiments.. mapped onto everyday life and used to understand how well (or not well) how are system is working.. evolve to disrupt it
14 min – a: i don’t know about the word emergent.. words used diff ways.. so hard to talk about.. i do live in ambiguous space and think that’s helpful.. a lot of time people end up in wars they think it’s over facts.. but it’s not facts.. so zooming into the specific makes it about what it’s actually not about..t not that no room for specifics.. just role i’m trying to embody is ambiguous.. because i think if i look at landscape of these groups.. i want to id the high enough level patterns where both would (align).. pathways that both groups would be better off..
16 min – b: why important to you that people understand…
17 min – a: most people’s energy pointed in wrong direction.. it’s pointed at the other instead of just system structures.. we’re not having the convos that would build up the something diff we can move into.. t holding groups apart is contempt.. go into fight/flight mode.. getting barrier of contempt to cool off is going to be necessary to collab enough to make changes that need to be made
cancerous distractions via irrelevant s
b: you bring up conflict theory of conflict.. people going to glob into group and the reinforce that group dynamic.. othering by fighting.. can that be harnessed by econ and can it ever not be the case that human beings act that way
19 min – a: i think human beings generally act that way.. but also the system structures channel the way groupish ness works.. often generous.. but if threatened.. operating w/in system.. so system is structuring way that manifests.. so something that would restructure that is good.. so your question about human nature… i think we have to be a little bit flexible with our understanding of human nature.. some comes from our understanding built up on concepts we’ve known our whole lives.. and diff cultures have diff concepts.. and we can’t know from where we’re standing how much of that is changeable and how much isn’t..
21 min – b: when we concern ourselves w knowledge systems.. that leads to its own system of vipers.. when people think in those terms people think in terms of how society should function and no longer see the individual.. seen as cog in machine.. from my pov .. ideology tends to treat people like a mechanism and an mythology tends to treat people as a story.. and i think the human experience is more of a story than a machine..
23 min – b: so when you’re trying to build scaffolding up to conceptualize these things called systems.. then this trigger ‘change the system’.. i know a lot are bs.. but a lot are necessary.. i worry about the project itself of trying to change the system.. though i know needs to change.. and could change itself if take an evolutionary lines.. but then looking at these collapse and reboot
hope you get into ones you think are necessary
24 min – a: the diff levels.. *i think we need to start thinking in fractals.. all need to be in our mind at once..t
*and to me even deeper.. need to think in terms of organism as fractal.. because we keep trying to match/pair/read ourselves into (and out of) dead things.. rather than living.. two very diff fractals
25 min – a: i do think change is going to happen at multiple levels.. not going to happen top down.. not going to happen form individual up.. it’s going to happen sometimes in groups/individuals.. one area collab could happen there’s more overlap.. people from both sides talking more fractal ish.. than the other side thinks
infinitesimal structures approaching the limit of structureless\ness and/or vice versa .. aka: ginorm/small ness
30 min – b: could you give a better description of how the ie: left
why even do that? oi.. batiste categorize law et al.. marsh label law.. et al
a: you need both in society.. so need collab.. and both need to not be broken into parts
32 min – b: what’s a good society.. what’s the scaffolding around those core principles
a: i’m trying to not put off people in my zone.. but i’m a christian.. that’s my back/fore ground.. that mythology is a living relationship.. the way a person’s conception of the good gets discovered thru every day relationships and the way god manifests thru expectations and trying to help us perceive what is beautiful in the big and the small
33 min – a: every morning i sit w god and trying to figure out.. what do you want from me.. a dance w god.. where do i fall short.. and a garden.. god gives space you have to cultivate by paying close attention to people/earth in that space and what you’re trying to bring out
34 min – b: why econ a: i get along well in spaces wehre i can be a little intellectually combative.. where there’s respect and not enforced ideas.. i feel like in sociology there is more enforcement thru judgment..
35 min – b: if enforcement by judgment doesn’t agree with you why are you so worried about turning people off..
36 min – a: i feel it’s about the convo stopping.. and i feel my sweet spot is where people come together..
37 min – a: i think collapse is a scary word used as click bait.. i use paradigm shift.. because it’s a form of collapse that is devastating for some but freeing for others.. i think that’s the style of collapse that is needed..
oi.. need something for all if want legit systemic change.. no collapse needed.. just things becoming irrelevant
38 min – a: in paradigm – in uni – have ok questions to ask that stay w/o paradigm.. a paradigm shift happens when you have a heretic that comes along and questions a piece of foundational knowledge.. really offensive to thought leaders in the field.. built whole career on this stupidity.. so discipline has this immune system.. to kick out heretic.. if heretic strong enough to persist.. people will listen.. but they won’t join him because they know they’ll get kicked out..
39 min – a: but then science progresses one funeral at a time.. they retire.. quiet followers of heretic .. some of that is allowed.. window opens..
40 min – a: i think people are really afraid of collapse because destruction is really fast but building stuff is really slow.. takes a long time to build foundations.. trust.. trust in institutions.. often time quiet followers of heretic still listening.. so can shift can happen suddenly.. but because of this (behind followers building up behind the scenes).. rebuild can happen suddenly.. so collapse doesn’t have to be scary..
41 min – b: as long as not talking about infra of civilization.. maybe .. like would collapse in dollar.. would that be paradigm shift.. and bitcoin is the heretic
whoa.. that’s exactly what needs to collapse aka: become irrelevant
46 min – b: defense is a sign there’s something new and that you’re weak.. or you wouldn’t be so reactive.. science doesn’t have to happen one funeral at a time.. but going to have to die if want to grow closer to god.. little deaths prepare you for grace.. more in tune w those things
47 min – a: i love that you have to die over and over…
rather.. need to uncover.. what is already on each heart
48 min – b: you have to go thru many shapings.. authenticity is a moving target
49 min – a: 2017 my campus shut down in relation to race.. took me couple yrs to process.. i was shaped by that.. and ended up being a hoax..
1:01 – how can idea go from that to global
has to be need a problem deep enough to resonate w/8b today.. via a mechanism simple enough to be accessible/usable to 8b today.. in an ecosystem open enough to set/keep 8b legit free
ie: org around a problem deep enough (aka: org around legit needs) to resonate w/8b today.. via a mechanism simple enough (aka: tech as it could be) to be accessible/usable to 8b today.. and an ecosystem open enough (aka: sans any form of m\a\p) to set/keep 8b legit free
1:03 – a: i did feel like 2020 was a peak of that 2017 .. ie: how did people find their integrity in this space.. systemic/social injustice .. the concepts in that space.. that is so powerful.. i don’t see full understanding of that in anti woke spaces.. i think if the recognized these.. they would collab more with woke spaces..
1:16 – a: i think there’s a god shaped hole that gets filled w some of that
b: can there be any econ system w/o value
a: no.. going to have some way of determining collective intell.. some way of weighing diff values differently
intellectness as cancerous distraction
1:17 – b: collect intell is scary.. st paul talks about awareness as part of a system.. helpful analogy.. because lot of people lower than me but essential
lower? oi
1:18 – b: but econ can be so dehumanizing.. that’s why i asked.. reduce us into this objective pov.. how do you do it cleanly.. what are the values that govern discipline of econ.. t
oikos (the economy our souls crave).. ‘i should say: the house shelters day-dreaming, the house protects the dreamer, the house allows one to dream in peace.’ – gaston bachelard, the poetics of space
sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do
1:19 – a: markets.. voting.. are a forms of collective intelligence.. but both are little disembodied.. doesn’t (but can) take account of relationship.. i think to have potential to heal.. it can’t just treat people in disembodied way.. needs to account for diff relationships.. how do you do that.. that’s the question
oi.. great ie of intellectness as cancerous distraction.. ie: 10-day-care-center\ness; voting ness; any form of m\a\p..
how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us.. ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental expo labeling).. to facil a legit global detox leap.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
1:21 – a: i think that’s the correct way to use econ maps.. to use them as structure of relationships.. ie: what is mother.. what is daughter.. econ model when used well has relationships in non linear ways.. if want to see relationships between people.. in a new way.. a model that can structure a diff style of relationship.. i think that’s a mature way to use tool of econ..
1:23 – a: not called to look at politics.. polarized.. only so much brain space.. i look at knowledge spaces.. just don’t go deep .. looking from higher level.. what are dynamics that shifts how info is used.. and valued
1:24 – (b: what do you see) a: stuff we talked about in collapse.. we need a way of visualizing collapse.. what are analogies we need to move into diff space.. human body and forrest are good analogies because self heal and recycle.. that’s part of it
that’s organism as fractal ness
1:25 – (b: what do you think of hierarchy) a: forest systems have some hierarchy.. if try to equalize things lose essence of real human beings
non hierarchy doesn’t mean equalize
what the world needs most is the energy of 8b alive people
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature ie: tech as it could be
1:29 – a: mechs that determine what rises in power.. need to be in balance.. lots of cycles thru out history.. doesn’t mean they’re all the same in justice/beauty.. we could learn from what went better/worse.. *new tech could play a big role.. i think this is diff because of tech and connections.. t i’m not trying to design new system.. just trying to draw people into truth of how things are and about **possibilities and creative thinkings
*there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance..
ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
**need to get to the unconditional part of left-to-own-devices ness.. for that.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it
ie: a sabbatical ish transition
1:38 – b: on how do relationships scale
a: there’s diff styles of relationships.. what are diff spaces for diff styles..
1:49 – a: whatever change in structure is going to need to facil relationship just for sake of this relationship
again.. how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us.. ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition
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be you. 