the four horsemen (doc)
Published on Nov 10, 2016 (original film released in march 2012)
Four Horsemen is a 2012 British documentary film directed by Ross Ashcroft (@RossAshcroft). The film criticises the system of fractional reserve banking, debt-based economy and political lobbying by banks, which it regards as a serious threat to Western civilisation. It criticises the War on Terror, which it maintains is not fought to eliminate militant organizations, but to create larger debt to the banks. As an alternative, the film promotes a return to classical economics and the gold standard. Among those interviewed are Joseph Stiglitz, former chief economist at the World Bank; Noam Chomsky, linguistics professor; John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man; Herman Daly, economy professor and former economist at the World Bank; and Max Keiser, TV host and former trader. The film was released in the United Kingdom on 14 March 2012. A book based on the film has been published.
2 min – we are governed by corps
3 min – war, conquest, famine, death.. 4
4 min – this is not a film that sees conspiracies.. mongers fear.. blames bankers/politicians.. it’s a film that questions the systems we’ve created and suggests way to reform them..
5 min – the trait that has enabled us to survive is the very trait that has suppressed us
gillian tett (@gilliantett): most societies have an elite.. and elite try to stay in power.. not by controlling means of production, to be marxist, ie: by controlling the money.. but by controlling the cognitive map.. the way we think.. what really matters..not so much what is said in public.. but what’s left undebated/unsaid
for centuries gatekeepers have manipulated our cognitive map.. but in 1989 ..tim berners lee – implemented first successful communication between http client and server….www.. unleashed psunamai of freely available info.. just as printing press wrestled control of cognitive map away from elite.. today internet beginning to change govt/finance/media… but to enact it must first understand things that have been left unsaid… to understand something is to be liberated from it..
7 min –
lawrence wilkerson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Wilkerson): end of ww2 – we were the new realm.. devised power management scheme.. haven’t done anything sinse..
9 min – most notorious trait of all.. debasement of the currency
david morgan (http colon slash slash www dot themorganreport.com/ – site has auto sound watch out – silver investor): as silver standard corrupted..
john perkins (@economic_hitman): on the distractions we create .. for what’s really going on.. ie: sports… way back was gladiator fighting.. lulled into a lethargy and we’ve accepted it
another trait – rise to front of chefs (even from way back)
david: and this again is typifying the end of an empire.. everyone is out searching for the great ness we don’t feel anymore.. food, clothes, music, movies, reality tv,.. but can never get enough of what you don’t need .. what need is moral.. integrity
lawrence: a political nature to it.. vast #’s of people who don’t give a damn.. natural entropy .. over time.. dies.. question is.. how does it die..
13 min – the baby boomers have squandered future generations inheritance..
david: baby boom gone a done biggest mis allocation of capital in mankind.. we have chosen/perpetuated a system that is .. one of worst ways to use blessing bestowed on us
human beings are inconsistent.. ie: hope for peace.. but continue to invent ways to destroy each other
noam: human beings are complex creatures..
satish kumar (from a new story doc – founder of schumacher college): in spite of all the econ activities of last 50-70 yrs.. since ww2 .. we have not yet managed to solve problem of poverty.. et al.. malnutrition on one hand.. obesity on the other.. what kind of system have we created..
16 min – with such poverty in the age of plenty.. why have we not had the will to change such a vicious social structure
satish: greed is the fundamental ingredients for immoral econ… ghandi: have enough for everyone’s need but not for everyone’s greed
but does it go deeper than that..? is the problem systemic
17 min – when plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it. – Frederic Bastiat
simon johnson (@baselinescene) (mit sloan: http://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty-and-research/faculty-directory/detail/?id=41226) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Johnson_(economist)): as a civilization.. we’ve obviously had a great run
max keiser (@maxkeiser – former wall street trader): working on wall street… like when working at meat processing plant and become a vegetarian.. when you see money.. makes you sick
tarek el diwany ( http://www.kreatoczest.com/kz_publishing_ourtitles-pwi.htm – former derivatives trader) (http://renegadeinc.com/tarek-el-diwany-the-origin-of-banking/): i think if people knew what banking system is up to.. there would be a revolution tomorrow morning.. what it does.. creates money from nothing.. and lends at interest.. if i do that in my own home.. it’s called counter fitting.. so long as you allow fraud to be legalized.. all kinds of problems are going to pop up in legal system..
herman daly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Daly) (former sr world bank economist): create money out of nothing and lend it at interest.. sounds absurd.. when i teach sophmores .. they never believe it.. they’re right to doubt that could possibly be
19 min – tarek: if banking lobby is so strong.. they’re not going to change it.. what we have to do is convince people it’s their fault.. speculating on housing.. so going up.. et al.. what they’re not going to say.. is that banks are creating money out of nothing and pumping it into the system.. and that’s why prices are going up..
how is it we’ve ended up with a system in which banks have the power to create money..
20 min – since 71.. when nixon took states off gold standard… the world is operating under a system of money known as fiat
no .. that’s not it.. not deep/systemic enough.. to fix this mess
fiat is a latin word meaning.. let it be so..it is the law that this govt currency be money.. w/o that enforcement.. and the fact that we must pay tax with this money.. that dollar bill.. or that computer digit that reps a dollar.. would be pretty much meaningless…
very true.. but still what’s eating us alive.. is thinking we have to measure transactions.. that we have a tit for tat obligation ness..
we have to go deeper .. if we want to be free..
only govt has power to issue fiat money.. banks can create it thru lending..
again.. true.. and bad.. and why ie: transition towns et al.. are working on local currencies.. but that won’t get us back to us.. back to each one of us being enough.. without measuring transactions.. in order to validate people.. et al..
greatest gowth in money in history.. exponential.. who’s benefitting..?
22 min – in reality .. this process of creating money only redistributes wealth from the bottom to the top of the pyramid.. gulf between rich/poor gets bigger and bigger and bigger
max: when go off gold standard and into fiat currency.. combined w banking system.. end up compounding debt faster than can produce to support debt.. so eventually find yourself back in debt slavery..
david: you never get enough of a currency that doesn’t work.. you can print it to kingdom come.. but you can’t print wealth and you can’t get yourself out of debt by making more debt
what currency does work..?
23 min – of the money in the world today.. 97% of it is debt..
joseph stiglitz (@JosephEStiglitz – columbia uni.. ny) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz -former sr vp of world bank): in that battle there was a sense.. let’s not expose the flaws..
24 min – herman: communism failed.. to west capitalists in triumphalist mode.. thinking.. ah.. our adversary failed.. means we’re doing something fundamentally right.. both systems are trying to do something fundamentally impossible… grow forever..
25 min – gillian: assumptions that expansion could always happen.. go west young man
john: over last 30-40 yrs capitalism has taken extreme form… lot goes back to friedman.. reagan/thatcher buying into it.. huge privatization.. smaller govt.. but bigger military to govt up.. de regulation.. like we now think people sitting at top don’t need to be regulated..
well.. we don’t need regulation.. we need no one at the top.. ie: stigmergy ness.. no..?
we’ve had lots of years/resources/peoples to try regulation.. i don’t believe we have ever yet tried self-org stigmergy.. free dom.. ness..
26 min- friedman.. creating framework for capitalism..
27 min – two competing approaches: 1\ classical: less govt interference.. more autonomy.. need natural resources 2\ neoclassical: govt rule.. solve social problems.. leave free market to look after distribution of wealth..
neo classical emerged around 100 yrs ago.. w/desire to protect assets.. divorced from reality.. based on what ought to be.. favor large corps.. championed by reagan/thatcher.. still dominate policy today..
28 min – simon: change in power structure.. transfer of opp and wealth.. transfer w/in wealth.. from non-fin to fin..
1932.. in aftermath of crash.. piece of legislation to protect society..glassed eagle act .. 67 yrs later.. 1999 under larry summers.. bill clinton repealed .. once again banks could take money and speculate on anything they liked..
29 min – (?): wall street has become a very particular type of casino.. not the kind in vegas.. form of entertainment.. a casino that has massive repercussions on the rest of society.. so not just losing money on a few wild nights.. but way orgs lose their money.. impacting all of society.. leading to massive loss of jobs
30 min – unfettered gambling.. to collapse.. banks too big to fail..
hugo salinas price (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Salinas_Price): you have to bail us out.. we need money… this is what hank paulsen did in us congress. just went there one day and said.. look.. we need 700 bn and we need it now.. or else..
31 min – max: socialism for the rich.. capitalism for the poor… people are arguing against socialism in america and yet this is probably the most socialist country in the world right now
ha-joon chang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-Joon_Chang) (cambridge.. has been consultant to world bank, oxfam, un..and… googled his twitter.. this came up: https://twitter.com/UnlearningEcon): we have a system.. which isn’t even an appropriate capitalist system.. rich people make mistakes.. poor people pay for the mistakes of the rich..
32 min – suddenly. . instead of the econ serving the human being.. the human being is in perpetual service to amoral financial orgs..
32 min – after 9 11.. head of fed reserve bank.. alan greenspan slashed interest rates to encourage lending.. bankers needed new participants to keep cash flowing into a system that had become a global pyramid scheme.. all this newly created money entered the housing market and created unprecedented inflation.. house prices rose and rose.. new mothers were forced back into the workplace to service huge home loans and the anglo american dream became all about land speculation..
phillip blond (@Phillip_Blond)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Blond): the housing market in the west isn’t about ownership.. the housing market in the west.. because it’s the only way ordinary people can get ahead.. and ordinary people can’t get ahead but by wages.. what we’ve created is a mass bubble economics around housing.. because that sucks in a huge amount of capital.. takes capital for genuine innovations in the economy and puts it into a speculative use that has no genuine productive outcome..
so.. why again are all of us .. intelligent people… continuing to play this game..? i don’t mean the game of .. ie: land speculation.. i mean the game of .. money.. measuring transactions..
simon: it’s interesting.. if you talk to people in germany.. they don’t see a connection between owning a piece of property and then being inclined toward democratic.. because lots of people rent their housing there and they’re perfectly comfortable with that arrangement.. but it is true.. in somewhat diff contexts.. reagan and thatcher..pushed for more people to own housing.. and actually.. this is part of the problem.. because if you push people to buy housing before they’re ready. . if you push very devious loans on them..and they don’t understand what they’re getting themselves into.. you can have huge adverse repercussions.. exactly what led to .. in part.. the subprime housing crisis in the us… that’s not anything to do with democracy.. that’s just a bad economic idea..
michael hudson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_(economist)): the breakthru that occurred around the year 2000 in the us was when bankers found out that the poor are honest.. realized that if you’re poor.. not rich.. you have a diff set of values.. and you think that a debt is a debt and it’s something that has to be paid and that people will try to pay the debts that they’re stuck with.. even if the debts are not valid.. even if the debts are much more than they expected.. even if they really can’t pay the debts..
35 min – michael: the banks engaged in what was a criminal conspiracy.. that charged more to the blacks/hispanics.. the banks got together backed the bush admin to block the state prosecutions of racial lending in order to exploit and charge more to the minorities..
george nilson (baltimore city council lawyer): these are loans which were made by one of the major lenders in this city/country.. wells fargo.. in which wells fargo targeted minority communities in the city.. put borrowers into loans that they could not afford.. that were of the subprime variety.. more expensive and less advantageous to the borrowers.. many of the communities in which african americans live in the city were establishing momentum… vitality.. results of wells fargo foreclosures.. and lending practices.. has significantly impaired that process and called it to a halt..
37 min – what happened in baltimore just one ie.. one way to frame is by branding racist.. but if look closely.. we can see something that transcends race.. profit..
joseph: not an accident that we had de regulation of financial industry that was such a disaster.. so.. the way our democracy works.. is an unlevel playing field.. (can’t afford voice)
38 min – simon: the financial sectors power.. partly thru political contributions.. but mostly thru ideological control.. convincing people that finance is good.. more finance is better and unregulated finance w/o limits is best.. and that really is the cornerstone of what we call in the us this wall street washington corridor – @baselinescene
james turk (@FGMR): if people need any proof as to who’s controlling washington… when bail out came.. 80% of population was against the bail out.. not withstanding that congress passed the bailout.. just showing ,..in my view anyway.. that it’s really under the control of banking interests..
joseph: it’s not a reflection of good democracy when a co.. a group of co’s.. and industry says.. our interests are more important than the national interests.. how can that happen.. very easy.. thanks to the role of campaign contributions lobbying and america’s political structure.. we have a flawed democracy – – @JosephEStiglitz
and that we’re measuring transactions at all..
39 min – simon: it’s an advance oligarchy in the sense that its main mechanism of control.. if you like..is thru convincing people that you really need.. for ie.. the 6 biggest banks in the us..in the particular form they exist today.. with a very light level of regulation.. and if you don’t have them.. if you try to change that..all kinds of awful things will happen and.. this is not really blackmail.. i mean it sounds like blackmail.. but that’s just the way the world is.. there’s nothing you can do about it.. oh my goodness.. you just have to coop with them.. it’s very clever.. – @baselinescene
michael: the fed is essentially the lobbyist for the commercial banking system.. when you say you want to turn regulation over to the fed.. you’re saying the financial sector and wall street should be self-regulated.. and wall street has veto power over whoever is going to be the head of the federal reserve… as long as you give veto power over the regulators to wall street as long as you pick the bank regulators from the banking industry itself you can forget any thought of calling it regulation.. it’s de regulation and to call it regulation instead of deregulation is using orwellian doublethink
40 min – democracy is govt by the people… plutocracy is govt by the rich.. in a typical plutocratic state.. economic inequality is high..social mobility low.. and because of continuous exploitation of the masses.. workers find it nearly impossible to climb out of poverty..the equal voting rights movement in the early 20th cent abolished a system where rich people had more votes than poor people but today.. lobbying has put pay to that.. and *reduced the american political system to a mere clearinghouse.. for the concerns of the rich
*agreed.. but we need to go deeper than that..and today we can..
perhaps we have the tech capabilities (io dance ness) to redefine decision making.. (ie: governing/consensus\ing by the people).. and disengage of money (ie: any measuring of transactions.. and validating of people)
41 min – max: the goldman sachs machine is one of using profits to buy affluence in washington to change laws to make it easier to make money on wall street to be used to buy affluence in washington.. so it’s a self-reinforcing malfeasance machine.. that is continuing to grow as a parasite in the economy and continuing to kill the host
famous for claiming it did god’s work.. goldman sachs is one of the most influential investment banks in the world.. its alumni often occupy positions of great influence in govts and central banks… in sept 2008.. barely a month before the stock market crashed.. goldman.. supposedly a pilar of the free market.. changed its banking status from investment to commercial.. this meant it was now illegible (?) for state protection.. socialism for the rich.. right there..
42 min – noam: goldman sachs are extremely efficient at what they do.. their task is to make money… they make bank robbers like willy sutton.. look like modest amateurs.. they’re huge bank robbers.. but it’s legal..the system is set up so they can do it.. in recent years they’ve been selling securities put together from mortgages that they knew were worthless.. so they’re selling these things to unwitting consumers.. making a ton of money on it.. meanwhile they’re betting that they’re going to fail because they know that what they are peddling is rotten.. so they placed bets with what’s called credit defaults.. and other things.. with a huge insurance co…aig.. and that was insuring goldman sachs against the failure of the stuff they’re peddling
43 min – during america’s subprime collapse.. 2 guys made 4 bn profit by shortselling junk mortgages…. goldman sachs called it the big short and bet against their own clients.. blankfein of sachs.. called to testify.. riding the big short in 2007 made bns of dollars for goldman.. and so far.. they’ve got away scot free with this massive heist..
44 min – noam: so they’re now (2012) back bigger than before.. richer than before.. biggest profits they’ve had in history.. huge bonuses.. they’re doing great.. a lot of what they’re doing.. maybe all of it.. has almost nothing to do with the benefit of the economy
can there be any objection to genuinely talented people (pics of ie: jobs, winfry, ..) earning big money if they bring something new/tangible to world.. if they take great risks w own money and actually bring greater prosperity for all
45 min – dave: .. and that paradox .. is the brilliance of a free market.. that you can serve yourself and simultaneously serve others.. and that’s what it’s all about..
ie: we haven’t yet let go.. of money.. of measuring..
but how many of the general public have achieved greater prosperity thru a banker’s bonus..
the devoted christian (lord griffiths.. vice chair of sachs) explaining how bankers think..defended extortion/bonuses: i’m not a person of despair .. i’m a person of hope.. and i think we have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all
donald reeves (@donaldreeves) (founder the soul of europe – http://soulofeurope.org/): a fundamental christian view.. and i would say islam as well and certainly of judaism… **wealth is to be shared.. money has to be shared.. can’t take it with you.. from that develops a whole bunch of stuff about justice..and economies.. and we’ve lost that.. and instead we’ve got people accumulating more and more.. and i just think it’s *disgusting.. that people have lost their homes.. ***lost their jobs.. because they can’t pay their ****mortgages from bankers who made a big mistake and then paid enormous bonuses.. i’m sorry.. that is simply wrong… i can’t understand why we.. are not more vociferous (vehement) about that
perhaps.. more *disgusting.. that we think we have to have **money in first place.. and ***jobs.. and ****mortgages/ownership.. et al.. there is a nother way… to live.. to be..
46 min – simon: when rich people tell you they have to be rich thru these egregious rip off mechs.. that’s just self-promoting propaganda..should be disregarded.. *it is true that when you org society.. some people get ahead and some people struggle.. that’s a natural mech.. but saying.. we’ve got to have inequality therefore goldman sachs has to be org’d along following lines.. that’s a complete **non sequitur (invalid argument) – @baselinescene
*whoa whoa whoa.. it is true..? perhaps that’s the complete **non sequitur ness.. esp because we keep assuming it.. so subtly..
47 min – joseph: at what juncture.. at what point does morality enter into economic calculus.. in a way .. many people think that adam smith gave us a free pass.. a way .. not to think about morality.. because what adam smith said was that individuals in pursuit of their self-interest are led if by an invisible hand to the general well-being of society.. and let me make it clear.. adam smith didn’t really say that.. that is to say.. adam smith was very much aware that businesses when they got together.. conspired against the public interest.. raised prices.. he was aware of monopoly.. he was aware of he *importance of education.. that the private sector couldn’t provide.. so he himself was aware of all of the limitations.. but his latter day descendants have forgotten all those caveats.. – @JosephEStiglitz
*another way we’re missing us.. via non sequitur ness.. thinking anyone can provide ed for another.. so .. saying the importance of education… zaps so much human potential/energy.. before we even get going..
48 min – adam smith was the godfather of classical econ but since publication.. his work has been used as a political football.. financiers twisting his words to suit them.. lord griffiths advocates ruthless individualism to push this idea that if bankers get rich then we get rich too.. thru a process known as trickle down economics… but it doesn’t work.. because by the time the money has reached the bottom.. it’s lost its purchasing power..
or.. perhaps it doesn’t work.. because.. money ness (measuring transactions) never will.. not matter how kind.. it appears..
49 min – the public are now confused (picts of protests/riots) as to how our political leaders have allowed this to happen.. and quite naturally.. now ask why
joseph: because our political processes are badly flawed.. because of the dependence on lobbying/campaign contributions.. *so that’s why my view.. and i think a view of a lot of people.. is that we have to restructure our political processes.. to give more voice to the ordinary citizen and less voice to the interest group to the moneyed groups.. to those who have taken such a large role in shaping our tax code .. our regulatory.. regulations.. and so forth.. – @JosephEStiglitz
today..we can deeper than that… we can’t not.. because public consensus always oppressed someone (s)
50 min – lawrence: i stood on the front step of colin powell’s house and i looked at him and said.. what next boss.. he said… ‘maybe a cabinet position.. but first.. money.. he said.. yeah.. millions.. that’s the only way you can be a cabinet officer in the american govt… ‘… oh wow… *the dems and repbulicans are beholden to corp interests..and until they become unbeholden to those corp interests.. we will never have a well governed republic
*doubt that’s ever possible.. in terms we are thinking… our rep system is killing us.. we need a nother way.. more stigmergic..
51 min – political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable.. and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. – George Orwell
the inherent inequity in our system of money, banking, and politics.. has not just had consequences domestically.. but also on a massive scale globally..
52 min – western leaders have presented their military campaign in iraq and afghanistan and pakistan as a moral obligation.. but are there other reasons for it.. the first beneficiary.. of our foreign policy.. is the military.. in particular.. those who supply it with arms and equipment.. the military has won wars.. but how successful has it been in its bigger area.. to eradicate terrorism
nazier ahmed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Ahmed,_Baron_Ahmed): the drone attacks not only failed.. but they’ve created extra extremism.. they’ve held in radicalization.. of youth in the nw frontier and also in s parts of bangab (?) and pakistan… because time after time.. and sometimes you know.. there’s a feeling that america does this deliberately.. to destabilize pakistan.. i’m not so sure about that but i certainly think those people who actually support this policy.. every time you kill 10 the so-called terrorists.. you create 500 more.. because they see the drone attacks as attack on a sovereign state of pakistan
kaiser bengali (http://www.pakistanherald.com/profile/dr-qaiser-bengali-469): if they really wanted to flush them out.. there was no need for a huge military operation in swat (?) causing the entire district to become internally displaced persons.. the population of swat 1.8 million there are 2.3 mill refugees in country.. whole district has been emptied.. wouldn’t have necessary if had *carried out a surgical commando operation.. to get the militant leaders.. but they allowed them to escape.. all of them..
after the military.. the next financial beneficiary… are the ones who win the contracts to conduct the rebuilding .. in the west.. people might even feel optimistic when they hear that the us are pumping 10s of billions of newly created dollars into developing nations to build infrastructure..but often this too doesn’t seem to achieve the publicized goals.. is there another reason we give these countries aid
54 min – john: we economic hit men have created the world’s first truly global empire and we’ve done it primarily w/o the military.. we work many different ways.. but perhaps most common is we’ll take a third world country that has resources our corps covet.. like oil.. and then arrange a huge loan to that country from the world bank or some other sister org however the money never goes to the country instead it goes to our own corps to build infrastructure projects in that country.. power plants.. highways.. industrial parks.. things that benefit a few wealthy families in that country.. as well as our corps but don’t help the majority of the people at all.. they’re too poor to buy electricity or drive cars on the highways..don’t have the skills to get jobs in the industrial parks.. but they’re left holding a huge debt..
55 min –
najma sadeque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Sadeque): infrastructure which is used heavy loans from the world bank and made from grounds from western countries.. gone into benefitting the elite and feudal classes.. they have not benefitted the people
nazier: a lot of money goes to these consultants and co’s from the west who charge huge amounts of money and actually the real money on projects and ordinary people is very limited.. the masses have very little already .. so those landlords who have the infrastructure and who are going to make money because of the infrastructure that is built through their roads.. they will prosper.. but the ones who don’t have any resources.. they’ve not had jobs.. there isn’t an economic activity for them in terms of manufacturing goods so they could sell and they could also prosper.. when you don’t have that.. what do they do.. they resort to joining the taliban.. because they see the enemy coming in and taking away what little bit they have
56 min – najma: obama i understand wants to invest 7.5 bn in pakistan infrastructure to alleviate poverty.. take away all the divisions.. and all the empty american sentiment over here.. whatever his reasons are.. we can do w/o it.. in fact it’s the worst possible thing he can do.. this kind of help is going to be hindrance is actually going to make matters worse.. it will bring this contrived war on terror..into our rural areas..
how much of us foreign policy is genuinely altruistic and how much of it is influenced by the banks and corps that profit so tremendously from it
57 min – gillian: america’s evangelism of democracy is riddle with contradictions.. not least of which this idea of promoting democracy at the point of a gun or opposing regimes which are democratic but not in the way that america wants… so too.. this idea that america’s been promoting free market capitalism has also been riddle with contradictions because the reality is that american firms tend to make most money when countries are at a cusp of change.. certainly american financial firms.. and in a sense.. they want markets that are changing structurally.. but not too free and too transparent.. because they make money when markets are a bit opaque – @gilliantett
is it any wonder.. developed nations are fighting in underdeveloped countries.. when so many are making so much money out of it.. without ever really having to face up to .. or even witness the consequences of their actions..
58 min – tarek: so what if 5 million kids died in africa because of debt last year.. i got a bonus of 1 million lbs.. and … i’ve had that convo with some of the bankers who’ve been in the business a long time.. and .. they listen politely.. they’re very polite.. very charming.. and at the end they say.. tarek.. it’s lovely meeting you again.. and they go back to the office and do another loan deal that turns a euro or something
john: i’ve known a lot of ‘terrorists’.. i’ve met them.. i’ve interviewed them for books.. i’ve known them since i was an economic hitman.. i’ve never met one who wanted to be a terrorist.. they all want to be with their families back on the farm.. they’re driven to terrorism because they’ve lost the farm.. it’s been inundated with water a nitro electric project.. or with oil from oil derricks.. their farm has been destroyed .. they can’t make a living for their kids.. or in the case of the samali pirates.. their fishing water has been destroyed.. and that’s why they’ve turned to this.. it isn’t because they want to be pirates or terrorists..now there may be a few crazy people.. there are a few crazy people.. people w/their nuts loose.. there’ll always be serial killers.. there’ll always be crazy people.. maybe osama bin laden is one of them.. but they do not get a following unless there’s a terrible injustice going on.. and people are starving.. and deprived.. and then they will follow these crazy people because they seem to offer an alternative.. if we want to do away with terrorism.. if we want to have what we call in the us.. homeland security.. we’ve got to recognize that the whole planet is our homeland.. – @economic_hitman
59 min – what does the word terrorist actually mean… many terrorists would sooner describe themselves as freedom fighters.. could it be that the charge of terrorism could just as easily be made against western corps..speculators.. and policy makers..
1:00 – noam: when we talk about terrorism.. it means what they do to us.. not what we do to them.. and what they do to us can be pretty ugly..although it’s not even a fraction of what we do to them…. take say 9 11.. that was a pretty serious act of terrorism.. maybe the worst single act of terrorism in history.. but it could have been worse. . suppose for example..that al qaeda had bombed washington.. the white house.. killed the president.. installed a fresh military dictatorship.. that brought in a bunch of economists who drove econ into worst disaster in history.. that would have been worse than 9 11.. and i’m not making it up .. it happened.. it’s called the first 9 11 in s america.. in chile..
sept 11 1973 – salvadorean president overthrown in coup.. a dictator – penoche – ruled chile till 1990.. 1000s imprisoned/murdered..
1:01 – noam: who was involved in that first 9 11.. not hard to find them.. they were right in washington and london.. but that’s off the agenda.. doesn’t count.. there’s a principle of ideology that we must never look at our own crimes.. we should on the other hand.. exalt in the crimes of others..and in our own nobility in opposing them..
the root causes of so called terrorism will not be solved by increasing economic inequality..
also won’t be solved by trying to make economic equality.. we’ve got to disengage from money (measuring transactions) as os
if govts really are serious about combatting terrorism then they must start with real structural reform back home
the things you own end up owning you.. – tyler durden
so let’s quit that
1:03 – herman: we have moved from a relatively empty world to a relatively full world.. in my life time the world population has tripled.. and the population of other things.. have vastly more than tripled… so world very full of what we might call.. man-made capital.. and is becoming more and more empty of what used to be there.. what we might call natural capital
richard wilkinson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_G._Wilkinson): we are the first generation.. we in the rich developed world.. to have got to the end of the real benefits of the economic growth.. for 100s of years.. *the best way of raising the real quality of human life.. has been to raise material living standard.. and that’s what’s driven the huge rises in life expectancy and increases in happiness and other measures of well-being.. but all those have now become detached from our economic growth and although life expectancy continues to rise.. in the rich world.. it’s no longer related to any amount of econ growth a country has at all.. and the same is true of measures of happiness/well-being..
*really.. are we sure..?
1:04 – the paradox is the more we grow.. the more poverty we create .. our self-interest in economic systems seem to be continually missing a trick… so.. is it time to question our western definition of progress..
is that rhetorical..?
1:05 – lawrence: when i look at world i look at it much like .. oil dot shell looks at it.. a planned corp structure.. where world leaders get together.. leaves a lot less blood on floor.. than.. scramble.. which arrives at same place.. but lots of blood
the reason oil co’s drilling miles under sea.. most resources already found and consumed.. 40% of world’s agri land is seriously degraded… may be that looming environmental threat is not global warming but exhaustion of resources
lawrence: struggle to find land.. for 9 bn populations.. over non renewable fossil fuels.. over water.. and other natural resources.. this could be a blueprint affair.. working together.. or a mess.. shell bets on it being a mess
1:07: our economic set up encourages one up man ship… competition.. comparison..
richard: in any species.. always potential for huge conflict.. because all have same needs.. so might fight each other for food..shelter.. sexual partners.. but human beings have always had the other possibility.. to be best support of love.. and assistance and cooperation..
1:08: to meet our needs.. we must move from globalization to localization..
or both.. we need both.. that’s what’s diff now.. and so amazing.. and we’re missing it..
the benefits of a communal sense of responsibility and purpose in a life driven by production rather than consumption..
richard: i think if someone had been living in the 19th cent and somebody told you that 100 yrs later *people were going to be living in this extraordinary wealth/comfort… central heating.. being able to throw away a high proportion of our food as we do… we’d imagine that we’d be living in an extraordinary state of social harmony and everything would be rosy.. it’s really quite remarkable the **contrast between.. if you like …the material success of our societies and the social failure
**because *some people..
partial ness is killing us (so too is measuring things)
1:09 – the growth economy demands that we make consumption a way of life
and so.. sales of anti depressants sky rocketed..
john: the fact is.. that the world economy over the last few years has been built on .. either the military.. or on things that most people don’t need.. and really don’t even want when you come right down to it.. but we all gotta have em..
richard: *consumerism is driven by an extraordinarily social nature.. we want to have the stuff so we look good in other people’s eyes..**it’s because i experience myself through other people’s eyes.. the feelings of shame and embarrassment or pride and maybe feeling envied.. so.. ***the goods are if you like.. mediating the relationship between yourself and others.. ****in this extraordinary alienated hierarchy..
*really..? i’m thinking more an anti social nature.. it’s an addiction.. and the hari: opp of addiction is connection..
**all feelings because already sick/toxic..
****ok. then. which brings .. at least me.. back to.. this is *anti social.. not social… that’s the root of why the system is so toxic.. not that we’re measuring (transactions) wrong/unfairly.. it’s that we’re measuring at all.. relationship isn’t about measuring transactions in order to validate people.. et al
1:10 – phillip: what’s really suffered is human relationships.. family life.. the things that really matter to us.. in the end.. the only thing that makes human beings happy isn’t money.. it’s very clear that past a certain level.. you only get marginal gains from wealth.. what really makes us happy is other people… it’s our relationships with other people that’s really been damaged *the last 30 years.. we trust them less.. have less interaction with them.. we **bowl less than ever before.. we marry less and marriage is under more threat..
*just 30 years…?
camila batmanghelidjh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camila_Batmanghelidjh): the west is coming to the realization that its human project is failing.. the west was so convinced that if you push people to achieve as individuals.. that accumulated achievement over individuals would make for a successful society.. and what the west is now beginning to realize.. is that the individual achievement.. w/o incorporating the vulnerable community.. is a myth.. the idea was .. make your own life..be individually aspiring..and then you’ll be individually achieving.. then individually prosperous..then individually happy.. you end up doing that in a glass jar.. in the end you die of lack of oxygen.. *human beings are alive because they seek attachment.. and because they’re propelled by **affection.. so the isolated achieving individual in the end implodes..
**perhaps that’s too extrinsic.. am thinking more propelled by eudaimonia..
1:12 – lawrence: in order to find a purpose in life it has to be *outside yourself.. it matters not how you construct it outside yourself **as long as it’s a positive value added to society.. if you’re **pursuing yourself.. you’re pursuing the abyss as nietsche said..
**killer.. ie: who’s going to decide if value added…
***used to be.. now we can do all at same time.. ni ness.. that’s the difference today.. that’s why we can’t leap.. just now.. opp is so prime
1:13 – i have never let my schooling interfere with my education – mark twain
1:14 – gillian: one of most powerful cultural frameworks that shifts the way we think today in the west.. is the hollywood film construction.. this hollywood ization of the way people communicate and tell stories about themselves.. and view their recent history.. has very much impacted the way we look at the financial crisis.. in that people look at the beginning, middle, end.. the drama around lehman bros.. and they want a resolution..and they want sacrificial victims and bad ees..so.. people are focused on a few individuals… and the idea that somehow it wasn’t just 1 or 2 individuals..who were at the root of the problem.. it was a systemic problem.. that actually almost everyone who participated was in some way guilty.. either outright negligence.. or simply failing to ask the right questions.. systemic ness .. hard to depict as a good story..
reminds me of pbs.. needing an individual story.. rather than the systemic problem..
1:15 – perhaps there is this feeling of helplessness because we don’t understand what the real problem actually is..
cleansing a few bad apples will not rectify the flaws at the heart of the western econ system.. a system that should be protecting people is exactly the one that is enabling our four horsemen to ride with such vengeance
1:15 – they gallop unchallenged.. because the cognitive map that is put in place by our schools, unis, and media.. does not encourage us to question accepted norms.. instead there is apathy..
hmm.. thinking.. not really schools and unis job to do that.. because assuming we all go to school/uni is part of the systemic problem.. and on apathy (lack of interest, enthusiasm, concern).. i’m thinking more intoxicated.. maimed (w/o shells)… otherwise.. why would suicides.. depression meds be on rise.. et al..
richard: *in a sense i think we’re rather depressed as a society.. we’ve got used to the idea that there’s nothing that can be done.. and there is not alternative.. what we have to take away from this.. is that most of these problems can be very substantially improved.. by making our societies more equal.. reducing the income differences.. and **that also helps us to solve the environmental problem.. ***we can reach a society that is qualitatively better for all of us
*in a sense..?
***indeed .. but not as long as we hold on.. to money.. measuring transactions.. et al..
1:16 – michael: the apathy is engineered because you don’t have any discussion of this in the public media.. because they are owned by the financial/real estate.. and they’re not going to explain to people the integration between the financial/insurance/realestates..
1:17 – tarek: there’s this disinformation going on.. passing the buck.. denying what the real driving factors are..all of these are common strategies.. in fact even in education you can see that banks have helped to set up unis..funded them.. fund think tanks.. they have educational foundations .. they own newspapers.. all of this stuff is going on .. as a kind of propaganda..exercise.. so other people don’t actually work out what the problem is..
simon: you should not assume because.. you don’t have a background in economics or law these issues are somehow too complex for you.. they’re not complex at all.. it’s very simple.. it’s about power.. and it’s about democracy..and… you understand that just as well as i do..
i’m thinking.. true..just as well.. only problem.. just as well.. is not very much.. we haven’t put ourselves on pause/quiet long enough .. to realize the systemic problem.. we keep go after the shiny/squeaky wheel..
it is very simple.. but power and democracy.. not deep enough…
1:17 – one source of this dis information.. is the neoclassical school of econ… these economists and academics have been successful at convincing the world that their mortals were gospel.. but just as printing press was revolutionary in the 16th cent.. today we’re at the dawn of *internet enlightenment.. which will remove the **cloud of ignorance upheld by academic and media gatekeepers..
*perhaps rather.. connected curiosity.. making everyone able to have a go.. everyday.. – equity
**unless you mean.. keeping us from seeing a and a as perhaps deepest two needs… won’t work.. for all of us.. removing cloud of ignorance.. isn’t what our souls crave.. it’s a byproduct of us going deep enough..
come on guys..
1:18 – education can be a form of mass mind control.. and it’s astonishing that today.. *neoclassical economics continues to be taught.. in all ivy league unis
*that is the least of our worries/focus.. doesn’t matter what’s taught.. the problem is .. we’re spending 7 plus hours a day and 12+ years.. assuming we’re where we’re supposed to be.. ie: in school being taught..
herman: i do get letters from students in econ depts in other unis.. saying i read stuff you wrote.. and i’m stuck in this program here where i can’t even talk about any of this..
oy.. herman daly stuck too.. answer isn’t to let them learn from him..
some of it’s useful.. go ahead and learn it.. the rest is useful.. to know your enemy..
whoa. great advice.. dang..
1:19 – many think they can’t change the system.. but they can change themselves.. if we’re not offered proper ed.. we must begin our own.. and a good place to start is to become re acquainted with the classical economists..
oy.. oy.. oy..
deeper.. you’re just telling this like it’s a different way.. but zoom out far enough.. you’re telling the same story that you’ve spend the last hour plus.. saying is the problem..
and with something that so few question but that affects us all.. our system of money
hugo: if the monetary system of the world is not reformed.. then we are headed toward the end of industrial civilization.. an absolute collapse of our world….the fact.. the fiat system of money
so.. none of you here have an answer.. that isn’t repeat the cancer..?
the fiat system of money is a man made law and it’s been abused..
money is man made.. and it’s abusing humanity
1:20 – is there a form of money who’s law is not set by man
james: when you look at natural law and gold.. i sort of describe gold as being a natural form of money..
this is just like you saying the unis/developing-country-rebuilding/et-al.. are funded by the banks/corps… you’re asking what’s natural money.. and taking the answer gold.. from a guy who’s work is gold..
james: all the gold that has been mined throughout history still exists in its above ground stock.. about the size of 2.5 olympic swimming pools.. the key is that this above ground stock of gold grows by blah blah granum.. which is approx equal to new world pop growth.. and approx equal to new wealth creation..
what does this have to do with any systemic problem..? picking something you think we might not run out of .. to continue our broken feedback loop of measuring transactions in order to validate people..
approx equal to new wealth creation..? what does that even mean.. so solving our problems..? how is it even sound… mathematically..?
james: so the net result of this is you have this very good consistency in gold’s purchasing power.. over long periods of time.. because the supply demand equation is very much in balance.. *to achieve human liberty.. you really need to have sound money.. and gold is the only way to do that.. because only gold is outside the control of politicians..
human liberty = sound money..
1:21 – with man made money.. debt builds up.. *debt is now regarded as normal.. it isn’t..
*hello.. neither is money..
it is slavery.. but how much do we question our debt.. and what should we now do about it..
michael: classic ie most recently of a debt cancellation.. was the german economic miracle in 1947.. the allies cancelled all domestic/international german debts.. except for the debts that employers owed their employees for the previous few weeks.. and except for a basic working balance that everybody was able to keep in the bank in order to buy food for the next few weeks or so.. essentially you would follow the 5-6 pages that the currency reform of 1947 did in germany.. *you would start with a clean slate.. that means that everybody would own their property free and clear.. the problem here is that you’d wipe off the savings that are the counterparts of that.. that actually would not be such a bad thing if you look at the fact that the wealthiest 1% of americans have concentrated an enormous amount of wealth in their own hands.. more than at any earlier time since stats have been kept
so .. *starting the game of monopoly over.. not changing the game.. because we know better.. shame on us..
1:22 – our system of taxation also *needs addressing.. currently we’re taxed on what we produce.. perhaps more progressive to tax what we consume.. founding fathers never intended americans to be taxed on their labor.. in other words.. weren’t meant to pay income tax.. tax system that was exported from britain.. a relic of colonialism.. has **duped the world.
*needs disengaging from..
**money ness has duped the world..
michael: the most important element of a tax system is to do what everybody expected to be done in the 19th cent.. that is .. to base the system on land taxation.. on the free lunch of land value and on what john stewart mill called the unearned increment… incomes that landlords made in their sleep..
1:23 – herman: who made oil in the ground.. coal.. or iron ore.. these are things which are not the product of human effort.. of course extracting them is.. but..their existence is not.. and so the rents from natural resources..are a wonderful source of taxation.. nobody made them so.. and when you do tax them you cause all of us to use them more efficiently.. so this seems like really the excellent thing to tax.. rather than labor and capital
michael: if the govts used this land-safe value that’s applied by nature..not by human labor.. not by personal enterprise.. then govt wouldn’t have to tax labor.. wouldn’t have to imply sales tax.. nor the proliferation of business taxes..
1:24 – this tax system advocated by all the classical economists.. would begin to address global poverty..
uh huh.. yeah.. sure
as it *would allow citizens in developing countries to keep their resource wealth.. in developed countries.. it would begin to address.. how housing and debt crisis and **unleash the kind of entrepreneurship needed to refloat our economies
*still stripping the land.. raping the land.. our earth body.. that’s ok..?
**lovely. i was unsettled just hearing the phrase.. unleash the kind of entrepreneurship.. bad enough.. but then too.. needed to .. refloat our economies.. serious..?
isn’t that what the whole problem is..
so basically.. you guys are good with rewinding to 1947.. same song second verse.. english accent little bit worse..
perhaps we should also resurrect another timeless principle for workers that was promoted during the industrial revolution..
noam: idea that people who work in a plant ought to own it.. just *deeply built into working class culture.. so right around here.. early industrial revolution in late 19th cent working people simply took for granted.. that yes of course the workers should own the mills..in which they worked.. anything else is an attack on our fundamental rights as free citizens.. **they also took for granted that wage labor.. is hardly different from slavery.. it’s different only because it’s temporary.. only way you’ll be free is by owning your own plants.. that was not an exotic view.. that was abe lincoln’s view.. in fact it was a principle of the republican party in the late 19th cent.. it’s taken a lot of effort to drive those ideas out of people’s heads.. but they’re still there and they are very relevant..
*ah yes.. deeply built into that.. but that’s not us.. how about we try something deeply built into us..
1:25 – it was plato.. ratio of earning between highest lowest paid should be no more than.. 6 to 1.. in 1923.. jp morgans declares no more than 20 to 1 is optimum.. yet today’s salary diff..can be higher than 500 or 1000 to 1
1:26 – herman: when you’re up in the ranch of 500 to 1 inequality.. the rich and the poor become almost *diff species/community.. commonality/interest is lost.. and so it’s difficult to form community and have good/friendly relationships across class differences that are that large
well.. right now we all are *diff species…. ie: science of people ness.. so what diff does it make how diff we are if neither of us are us.. when we’re living in a time we all can be.. our opp (that we’re currently missing): eudaimoniative surplus
when the public do vent their outrage over inappropriate earnings.. the common defense.. is to move the debate to the psychological realm.. and quote herbert spencer: he coined the phrase.. survival of the fittest.. and his words are now used to justify excess.. *competition in business is a good thing but the playing field must be level.. monopolists have too much because the system they game is rigged.. under the current economic set up .. the fitness of the vast majority of the world’s population is irrelevant.. those that are made to pay for this crisis..are not those that caused it .. but those who caused it.. for survival.. will not doubt try to marginalize this film as socialist.. or even marxist..
*let’s question this..
1:27 – max: i’m a capitalist.. i’m a business person.. i believe in the basic principles.. that’s why i’m completely *appalled by seeing these principles destroyed.. by monarch monopolists.. who have totally destroyed the system from within on wall street.. and this is **completely unacceptable..
let’s be more *appalled by seeing humans destroyed.. let’s disengage from these man made principles.. about measuring transactions..
**in my head.. it’s like someone crying that their monopoly board game got destroyed.. ignoring the girl in the corner.. who’s family just got bombed..
john: i’m a *capitalist.. i think capitalism can do it.. it’s not a question of getting rid of capitalism.. it’s a question of getting rid of this **terrible form of capitalism..
be a *human guys.. just be a human
let’s get rid of the **terrible form of humanity
joseph: capitalism .. more broadly understood market economy.. not only has a future.. *i can’t see another future of the world without it.. but the question is what kind of capitalism.. **what kind of market economy
1:28 – a system of reformed capitalism built on independent money; tax system based on consumption; and employee owned businesses would begin to build an economy that’s *not dependent on constant growth to service its debt.. we’ve endured the so-called free market..for centuries.. but far from being free.. it’s led us to destroy nature..and each other.. **in a vain attempt to progress..
**and how will that not be the case still
ha-joon: *ludicrous to suggest that somewhere out there a scientifically defined boundary of the market that we should never change you know.. and of course that’s what a free market econ wants you to believe.. **once they convince you of that and claim that..that they have the truth.. because they have phds in econ.. then they can tell you whatever they want.. and you have to accept it.. that’s where we have to take these guys on .. politics is about drawing the boundary of the market..
*ludicrous that we aren’t calling money into question here…
**so are we assuming money is truth/given..
we’re being very forceful about ie: redrawing the boundary.. but not so forceful about questioning what the boundaries are being drawn about in the first place.. ie: measuring us/transactions..
1:29 – simon: things that were considered absolutely reasonable in the 1850s.. like selling any chemical on the street corner.. and telling you it’s a pharmaceutical..are now *serious criminal offenses.. same thing will be true of active money management in 100 yrs..
of my.. pharma industry is the *serious criminal offense..
oh my guys..
breakdown we saw at great depression and witnessed again at begin of 21st cent..occurred because of in the name of growth.. much was taken out of the system by those who contribute very little..
1:30 – simon: of course it can be done again.. it’s a cycle.. we’re not debt peons but maybe rats running around a little wheel.. finance rises.. becomes org’d.. you make a lot of money.. but the essence of democracy is a repeated confrontation.. a repeated showdown.. (lists people who overcame banks in past) .. and now we have to do it again..
yeah.. because that worked.. each time..
closing words lost all meaning.. authenticity for me..