peter on systemic healing
The Zeitgeist of this Moment: Marianne Williamson with author Peter Joseph – sept 2021 – 49 min video
2 min – childhood.. parents as civil servants.. particularly my mother working in child protective services in deep rural n carolina.. subject to great deprivation/abuse.. as a young kid i wasn’t thinking about changing the world.. but i was around that subject matter.. first z film .. an awakening.. wasn’t supposed to be released.. just a performance/art piece.. for my own catharsis.. (to counter the) working in wall st ad agency ness..
3 min – i attribute a lot of my social activism/drive to my mother’s work.. as i reflected on what she did for a living for 20-30 yrs.. i realized just how important the economy actually was.. you really can’t stop the generations of child abuse and neurotic problems that happen with people as they age.. unless you stop the vast ineq.. that as far as i’m concerned is built into the structure of capitalism if you want to call it that.. so ineq, deprivation and poverty all intermix to create a very toxic environ.. and that is where it all began
even deeper than ineq.. it’s the missing pieces.. so beyond a balancing money/measure.. and too.. we are all in a sense on equal in missing the pieces.. none of us are free.. net all of us for the dance to dance.. et al
4 min – i never intended to pursue any kind of social work.. i fell i have been pushed into what i’m doing.. i don’t sit around and think of what my next step is.. i just kind of listen to my environ.. and over past 10 yrs.. been guided for better/worse.. i have to admit it can be very stressful.. getting 1000s emails.. people trying to figure out what to do for the future.. and obviously we are in a deeply critical period in terms of an environ sustainability and social sustainability by extension.. we’ve never experienced such a decline in resources.. biodiversity et al.. this is first in history of our entire species.. and we don’t know what to do.. and back to my kind of core/thesis as an activist.. until we have system level change, until we see the economy change.. we’re not going to be able to rectify the vast majority of the problems that keep mounting
5 min – m: you realized it was a systemic trapping .. i think there’s a simplistic convo going on.. ie: end capitalism.. and i think we need to go much deeper.. ie: is radical transformation possible.. and.. is it possible in time
6 min – so issue of the term capitalism.. 2 problems.. 1\ rooted in language.. many diff defn’s.. (elephant perception).. ie: 12 000 yrs ago we evolved from h/g societies that had no agri ability.. they lived in complete harmony w nature because they could not effect nature.. upon the neolithic revolution.. the anthropocene era.. when we are able to affect the planet.. hands in soil.. develop tech.. it seemed very great at beginning.. and a lot of anthropologists will actually admit it was the greatest mistake we ever made.. even though that’s hard for us to think about .. and the primitive association we have to those early indigenous cultures.. but actually i would argue as a society they were far more advanced.. because they didn’t have the ability to destroy themselves.. as we’ve created now.. so.. discover agri.. and suddenly have settled societies.. pockets (some w water.. some w land) in unbalanced world.. so trying to navigate from position of imbalance.. which creates incentive to start to trade.. specialization of labor.. someone grows corn/shoes.. suddenly there’s a natural propensity to start trading.. specialization.. and these networks of markets build out..
8 min – you can talk about all the isms.. underneath is still the premise of specialized labor and trade.. which has inside of it certain implications.. have to have: 1\ property 2\ competitive dynamic 3\ exploitative dynamic – not necessarily in a cruel sense.. hitting slaves w whips.. but the *entire premise of market behavior is based on some form of advantage thru exploitation .. one of most fundamental principles that seems to be misunderstood.. because it’s not about a value system.. it’s just what you do.. we hate to admit that but that is the fundamental gaming mentality of they system we’ve created.. so property, dominance, exploitation, competition.. this is what i call in my book.. the root socioeconomic orientation of our society which was born out of the neolithic revolution and is carried forward w us to this day.. that is the framework/structure of capitalism.. in concert w the more formal mech’s inside of it.. you have to have in this society.. cyclical consumption.. the more the better.. the system has properties that are unviolatable.. if changed them wouldn’t have the system at all.. founded on an infinitely growth paradigm.. can’t have that on a finite planet.. it’s not the population growth.. it’s the structural incentive..
12 min – m: beyond market/state.. human ethics.. if human ethics were a central factor in all this.. *business/regulations dominated by that.. we’d have a diff situation.. i think there is such a thing as conscious capitalism.. in hands of ethical people living values beyond econ.. what would you have us do
won’t have a legit diff situation until we let go of ie: business/regs.. any form of m\a\p
14 min – in philosophical/moral/ethical principle as core of religions/morality.. on trying to do onto others.. we’ve had a deep moral foundation preached to us for 1000s of yrs.. 1\ why hasn’t that taken more root than it has already 2\ if people had an ethical sensibility in deepest sense and were able to fight against the natural tendencies of the market system and natural incentives of capitalism.. yes.. you could have a society that did not contribute to all this imbalance/suffering/brutality.. exploitation thru competition/dominance.. et al.. that is a theory that i think is *best proven by the heroes of our society historically.. ie: mlks, ghandis, malcolm x’s.. and all the civil/human rights leaders that have preached that we have to rise up against these forces.. but that is not unfortunately where the **avg person rests in their spiritual/moral/ethical discovery discovery.. that isn’t convenient in the psychology of people.. because unfortunately the mental models that are forged by the incentives of our system are fundamentally based on a dominant/competitive/exploitative ethic.. so what you’re battling against is a structure that you’re trying not be ***morally appropriate against.. it’ doesn’t reinforce the moral drive that’s required to create the kind of sustainable consciousness.. it fights us..
16 min – i think there’s a necessity to have a certain humble ness w respect to the vulnerability we have as human beings in our cultural evolution and to not see ourselves as so explicitly independent .. there’s actually a great deal of argument to support the fact that we are so vulnerable to our conditions/upbringing/culture.. we ask.. how much of you is you.. because if you really think about one’s history.. we all derive our sense of identity from some type of linkage to something else in the external.. beliefs et al.. *all of it comes from a cultural place on some level.. so i argue a very complicated argument.. if we humble ourselves and realize we are thru puts.. we are vulnerable.. that we can’t necessarily outthink in terms of what’s reinforced from the system.. i think it’s a very big stretch to assume that we’re going to have a spiritual awakening inside of a completely toxic system .. and unless that spiritual awakening allows us to change that system.. to stop all the negative reinforcements that continue to pollute the average individual.. most people think they’re moral/ethical.. but yet they still game the system.. based on a zero sum game.. we are gamed against each other for the sake of advantage at the expense of others one way or another
17 min – i find it challenging.. we have to have a wakening.. spiritual connection that seeks way to create balance.. because if we don’t.. it doesn’t work.. 4th major problem is ineq.. imbalance so catastrophic.. we have to have better reinforcers to bring out the best in people
19 min – m: i don’t think most people think they’re ethical.. but i do think most people in their hearts want to be ethical.. chaos.. thinking we don’t *owe anything to one another.. if you watch small children.. the idea of causing loss to another person overrides any excitement of ‘winning’.. has to do w how people are taught.. we need to build human compassion.. and foster ones that are in the brain upon birth.. that’s why enlightenment isn’t a learning.. it’s an unlearning..
oi.. to the *owing ness.. and to maté parenting law et al
23 min – the conditioning that has occurred esp in the current structure takes that away: compassion, humanity, creativity.. people reductionist in world views.. we don’t have a wholistic sense.. relativity of that.. ie: our society powered by growth/consumption.. not a subjective decision.. simply what the system is.. that is the structure.. this is what i’m trying to get at in terms of the problems inherent.. doesn’t mean that everything isn’t salvageable in the world we see as far as economics.. it means that there are certain structural flaws
oh.. i don’t know.. i think keeping part of it is what keeps killing us.. we need to let go of any form of m\a\p.. we need to let go of trying to restructure that song.. and leap to.. a legit diff song/structure/org/
ie: oikos (the economy our souls crave).. ‘i should say: the house shelters day-dreaming, the house protects the dreamer, the house allows one to dream in peace.’ – gaston bachelard, the poetics of space
25 min – on destructions to the planet.. why? because we don’t care.. are we really that dumb that we can’t see ? no.. it’s this myopic compartmentalization of behavior that has to do with the need to keep cyclical consumption and econ growth going.. it doesn’t matter what the outcome is.. well.. it matters when it’s too late.. that’s what we’re seeing.. the only kind of major dramatic shift in our econ/social behavior will likely happen as it has historically thru crises when it’s really too late.. that’s what you call a balancing feedback loop.. problems so severe that we can’t even continue the distorted practices we have put forward..
27 min – when i say salvageable i mean in terms of a systems view.. not in the structure of capitalism as defined by classic economists.. but in terms of what the system is.. a system of labor specialization.. which is important.. we have to have people specialized in certain fields to some degree.. we become part of a systemic unit network to get things done and create a good standard of living.. it takes a community to do that.. that is what the network of markets has achieved.. at least in the abstract of it
we need to org/structure around legit needs ie: a nother way
but there are other ways to do it.. so you take that basic component of our community driven efforts to improve life and keep things going and then you start to break it down and realize.. what are the problematic attributes w/in what we’ve created.. markets in the individual act of trade.. have built into them all of those negative structural attributes.. in terms of unsustainability.. both culturally and ecologically.. we have to.. as radical as this is.. start to move away from the fundamental premise of market trade
yeah that.. any form of m\a\p
28 min – i’m not saying it ceases to exist on all levels.. because there are good arguments where on certain tiers it could.. but we start to go a direction that really keynes in 20th cent started to talk about.. when we had the increase of efficiency during the industrial revolution.. he had great foresight and great naivety.. because he didn’t understand the structural propensity to keep the system going regardless of how much efficiency we have .. the idea was simple.. you increase efficiency.. *people realize a sustainable standard of living based on scientific principles.. you start to reduce the work week, in increase wages, lower costs.. and suddenly you wake up one day and families have a unified form.. no one is struggling to survive.. have everything they need.. beautiful.. that’s not what the structure wants to do.. the structure we have is kind of like a sick demon.. an organism in and of itself based on deprivation..
29 min – m: i don’t want to hear anymore about how bad it is.. we agree on that.. i want to hear about what to do about it now.. ie: if people have more time/money.. conducive to recalibration/harmony.. what policies could help achieve this.. ubi?
yes.. in an incremental way.. ubi is really a way of compensating for the efficiency increases that are displacing labor.. that was yang’s fundamental premise.. it’s a way.. counter to keynes where you actually demarketize.. where people can live lives w/o having to pay for everything.. have a means to *generate abundance even in the throws of scarcity .. it’s such a contrivance.. we still have the ability to create equitable abundance on this planet for everybody
*key to that is getting all of us back/to grokking enough ness.. which means we have to detox.. get rid of any notions of.. any forms of m\a\p
w/ubi as temp placebo.. needs met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring
30 min – so ubi is a way of preserving the market system’s fundamental negative intent by pumping more money into the system.. and i want to see alleviation of poverty.. and i want to see the socioecon tensions to subside.. and i think ubi would have a deep socio/physiological effect .. so that’s what i mean by incremental.. but i don’t think it’s a solution to anything
31 min – m: medicare for all
of course.. i think unfortunately med for all .. goes back to all the colonialism ness et al.. its deep entrenchment in the free market philosophy.. have a global circumstance where (mindset) is that any kind of ‘social’ ness is a failure of individual drive .. need to pull up our bootstraps.. why don’t what works in other countries work here? because completely diff neuerotic culture/power establishment.. only way to get it to pass is if via ie: subsidies.. it serves their purpose.. like the obomacare
they don’t work here.. because they don’t work there.. they don’t work.. not a deep enough healing
34 min – on 3rd party.. i would say.. go with the dominant institutions and try to hijack them thru progressives that come into demo party.. i stand back from this.. when you look at republicans and democrats.. there’s not really a progressive ness.. it’s more conservative.. a social psychology..
35 min – so i step way back and say *we need a completely diff approach..t we don’t sideline political interests/activists.. i commend what you’re doing to bring good people to the forefront.. but there is such capture of the govt by business and necessarily so.. the govt of our society is an outcome of the econ structure.. that’s why it’s even formulated that way in hierarchy.. that’s why we have a president.. that’s why lobbying is legal.. so entrenched.. money buys everything..
yeah.. let’s do *that
ie: a nother way
completely diff: something we’ve not yet tried.. let’s do that.. let’s let go that much
37 min – m: this all has to do w who is on your supreme court.. built into system.. but built into a particular consciousness about how the system should operate.. and if members/decisions had been diff.. when you look at something like the new deal.. so history of us has not been one long hegemonic story of capitalist horror.. it has been a continuing trend towards hegemonic horror met at various times by extraordinary pushback.. ie: unions, child labor laws, the new deal, civil/womens rights.. so i think you paint a picture that does not allow for human agency and the ability of the human agency to push back against the monster ..
i think we both agree that it’s going to get really bad or there’s going to be a miracle.. a fundamental break thru.. that i just feel if you look at american history.. we’ve had some of those
38 min – to a degree.. i agree.. however if you look at all of the major pushbacks.. as you put it.. which first of all think about your language.. pushback.. it implies that there is a current that we’re trying to move against..
m: we are
39 min – yes.. and the current is going to continue regardless of how we pushback.. to some degree
m: until we are an enlightened species that will be true
ok.. and i would counter that .. and i agree w you by the way.. until we have a system that reinforces the better sides of our nature.. this system doesn’t do that.. all the movements .. all the seeming revolutions.. are being eroded slowly over time by that river.. even though they have held their place for some time.. not all about reawakening of individual mind.. that’s part of it.. but..
40 min – until we have a social system that actually promotes human rights.. where it’s built into the way we think .. as opposed to exploitation/dominance/competition.. i think we’re in a lot of trouble
m: so what do you think would be that system.. (if not socialism et al)
going back to the principles of sustainability and public health.. thru that lens i throw out all the isms.. it doesn’t matter.. you look at what’s going to work from the most principled stand point based on the knowledge we have today in terms of understanding *human behavior.. and understanding what’s required to live **on the planet
41 min – on ‘human nature to be competitive’.. instead what you find is that the we have to be sustainable.. which precedes everything.. it doesn’t matter what our *human nature.. i don’t think evolution has designed us to self destruct.. we’re generating this behavior.. meaning what we think we’re doing is irrelevant to what we need to do become sustainable.. if we don’t have a steady state econ based on equilibrium and remove the growth element in the structure.. then it doesn’t matter what we do otherwise because we’re going to continue the negative ecological trajectory
42 min – so let’s start from right there.. how do we create a steady state econ.. equity in public health.. 99% of humanity in h/g non hierarchical structures.. it’s an anomaly that we have the econ that we do and that we’re behaving in hierarchical dominated unsustaining methods that we are.. it’s not that this is just the way it is.. no.. go to h/g.. very non hierarchical.. et al.. all the human nature ness we see.. completely destroyed by the indigenous cultures.. equity is what you find in those societies.. they don’t have wars
yeah.. not deep.. far back.. enough
43 min – so you need equity as the fundamental foundation
good words.. i’m guessing not the same defn of equity.. i don’t see it as having to do with any form of m\a\p
rather.. equity as everyone getting a go every day
and you can’t have a society based on division hierarchy unfortunately creates..
44 min – m: why democracy isn’t working.. people don’t have free will.. all goes back to bad leadership
oi.. let go of any form of democratic admin
45 min – business is a dictatorship.. a fascist institution.. has nothing to do with democracy.. so why would we expect our govts to not employ the same kind of top down..
m: today ceo’s over govt.. until we get our democracy back.. in hands of people.. but like you say.. people have been so brainwashed
oi – so let go of perpetuating brain washing
47 min – it’s an enormous convo.. back to your question of what to do.. i think what’s going to have to happen to change society.. i think you’re going to see people start get off the grid of the market econ thru community driven but yet high tech networking that allows a new kind of industry.. a p2p industry.. a move toward open source and automation.. and access vs property.. we see kernels of this.. there is a transition plan.. it moves away from markets as far as possible.. it doesn’t override any of the other attempts.. we have to have ethical/positive political leadership and general leadership whether political or not.. we need forefront people who can change the cultural dynamic to start to move away from the sickness that this society and it’s underlying econ structure is creating.. and i think there’s a process to do that.. which has to do w slowly demarketizing
m: the time element is what’s so scary to me.. you use the words gradually/slowly.. this is not something that can happen quickly
m: on the other hand.. as the course of miracles says.. miracles collapse time.. the more deeply we understand the issue.. the more quickly we can make the change..t @marwilliamson
we need to let go of that.. for (blank)’s sake
m: i hope this is one of the convos we’ll be having pretty much for the rest of our lives
ugh.. just countered the time thing w same song ness..