intro’d to Ian via this convo w Vinay (march 2018).. esp intrigued when he got to the convo ness as base
“Listen as @leashless and @iang_fc have a fascinating talk about social structures of agreements, trust and dispute resolution, and the way Ricardian systems can be created to support it.” https://t.co/iQRcAtuALu https://t.co/3BruM8Tban
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/eosnewyork/status/981166987161284608
8 min – if you come to them w a forum that works they’re quite happy to adopt it because they know the existing forum isn’t for them..
we found easy in comparison to west.. selling western communities on arbitration is a hard one.. they think courts will protect them.. can’t possibly be true.. because when go to court one has to lose and one win.. so everybody can’t be protected… the larger the country gets the more the belief in their own legal system..
12 min – v: because it’s binding to an already living system.. this is a critical thing..t.. in a western business context.. no underlying living system.. that is transacting before contracts are in place.. generally people are agreeing there’s going to be a deal.. but stuff’s not happening till the paperwork is done.. and our lawyers generally enforce that pretty strictly..
13 min – yes.. if you’re in that frame of mind
13 min – v: so the notion is the software is fitted to the paperwork and the paperwork if fitted to the business process.. but none of it really interacts w any kind of fundamental social structure..
that is one of the key things.. to make this work properly.. you have to start from the community aspect.. or more precisely.. have to start from the communication aspect..t.. so the starting point for *this process is not digital cash .. it’s actually digital chat.. in the sense that you want to build your community around messaging
and so.. if you’re true to starting there (and assuming we could get people in the frame of mind of not cope\ing).. would you be willing to let go of the business/market/money/security/id/whatever *piece ..if the convos don’t ask for it..?
14 min – and on top of that you build your digital cash/asset system..t
yeah that.. would you let go of that..?
because if deep enough.. cash/asset becomes irrelevant
v: cash flowing in the communication channel
well idea has been a round a long time.. i wrote about it in 2000
15 min – skip was sold to ebay.. for that purpose.. ebay were having trouble w paper.. skype was the word.. security.. so if secure messaging.. how hard to put cash into that.. which they didn’t do
v: which leaves wide open space
why.. must we cash it..?
16 min – v: this all seems it’s circling around to something.. which is of course.. identity.. how do you know who’s how inside of these systems
it turns out that one’s a solved issue.. the community knows everybody.. when you form a chama.. you only form it with people you know very well.. so the community has id already wrapped up.. the only thing they’ve got to do is record it.. in some fashion.. now turns out to be pretty trivial in kenya
17 min – can’t take id outside of chama.. but can capture info about who was there and make a summary report.. and chama itself can become an authority
the problem.. or the desire.. esp that people in west have about id.. is they want to go to some institution.. like govt/corp.. and present some thing that suddenly makes it all good
18 min – but actually that doesn’t really measure up *in terms of risk analysis.. document has become an expectation but not actually delivering the trust/cause that you want
*not to mention the process makes us not us..
19 min – so the issue is not the id.. the issue is .. how do i get recourse for something going wrong.. t.. so.. the chama becomes the id/back-up/credential(via vinay.. the name space.. like they did in villages)
imagine something going wrong as irrelevant (approaching zero.. as chama ness gets ginorm/small )
let’s try gershenfeld sel
20 min – so.. if you know i’m from this chama.. you don’t even need to know my name
v: and chama has these assets.. so.. skin in the game
21 min – and now we’ve got people, assets, evidence..
v: matthew schutte on discretionary enforcement: 2 ways to punish people who misbehave 1\ take their stuff 2\ not give them more stuff in future.. and he’s got this whole model that works at village level.. but doesn’t scale because we don’t have the right machinery.. he thinks holochain is that machinery.. i have my doubts but i think his analysis is very strong..
whoa.. bag all that punishment and use blockchain/holochain to facil us
22 min – right.. and a whole lot of stuff actually does work inside the village and then stops working outside the village..(v: dunbar) .. exactly that’s why chama is that number.. because they’re limited by dunbar number
v: and that’s a universal thing.. who’s in your good books and who’s in your bad books
imagine only good books.. dunbar capabilities go into another dimension
now i start to behave because it’s my chama.. the amount of skin in the game that i have when i rep myself from coming from my chama is very high
imaging ‘behaving’ as irrelevant.. if people are truly free..
v: so transition from no trust society to high trust society using crypto.. which would what double the efficiency of the econ system..
23 min – it would add % points to the economy .. just like m pesa did.. previous was unreliable because it was cash by informal transport.. the only reason it worked was because drivers were owned by chama’s .. so driver was rep ing the chama.. in carrying the envelop
? again.. we’re assuming transport/exchange of money is a given
24 min – v: so chama was always there.. so taking existing social structure.. reenforcing structures w crypto so the internal credentials can be used externally
yes.. that’s the solution
v: let me run over that again.. because that’s very complex new thinking..
v: so.. internal trust structures.. at 30 person scale.. which are already handling funds on behalf of their members.. add a digital credentialing system.. which takes pre existing trust structure and makes it easy to extend the trust in a geographical sense..
25 min – that enables commerce.. can deal w people on other side of country w/o having met them before
so.. imagine again that at ginorm small scale.. ie: 7 bn free people so.. can trust every person w/o having met them before..
v: and to ricardian principle.. more advantage to trading w people not like you.. your people all doing ie: rice..
26 min – on micro finance.. if you go in w rich white capital and inject rich white capital models.. they don’t work.. if you try and flatten the local people into your way of thinking.. on paper it worked.. sitting in boston/sv.. but go there and they say.. well.. i’m going to just take the money.. so the big thing that happened to micro finance is it slid into loan sharking.. because once too many involved.. somebody is going to rise up and start abusing the system
well.. that’s a symptom.. of .. having one as os.. i don’t think it has to do with number of people..
because came from west w reliability bars to africa.. where reliability/trust slips down
29 min – v: (on difficulty in scaling across because of language across barriers).. take a word like owe.. the underlying cultural constructs are so diff
oy.. yeah.. with things having to do with our manufactured self.. ie: money/market
v: so you’re taking crypto and wrapping it around a cultural construct..
again.. let’s go deeper.. ginorm/small level.. what’s the cultural construct of each person.. what’s their curiosity.. let’s build the convo around that.. and facil that
30 min – the thing that struct me.. there are many diff chamas.. a million or so.. 300 000 that are registered.. rest are unstructured.. we’d call them hobby clubs.. so therefore.. talking about 1 mn assets.. so 1 mn ricardian contracts
again.. let’s go deeper.. ginorm/small level.. let’s go for 7bn.. everyday..
31 min – v: on this being diff than bitcoin.. here.. almost all the infra is based on already existing social infra.. *adding enough crypto that existing social structure becomes more effective..t
yeah that.. deeper.. let’s base all the infra on what is already in all 7bn of us.. i’m betting you find all the paperwork and trust issues and money exchanges.. and bad actors.. and whatever.. become irrelevant
37 min – when arbitration in .. people had consequences.. so behaved better
cool.. but there’s a better way.. ie: give everyone something else to do..
we also came down to the nature of the certificate.. what it basically said was .. not who you are.. well it said that but that wasn’t the important part.. what it said was.. this person is a member of.. and therefore..
v: so to indicate a chain of accoutnability
39 min – yes.. so that lifted us.. and now we apply that to chamas.. just haven’t had way to export that.. people were saying put the identity in there and we said no .. put the accountability in there
i’m saying we need neither if people are truly free.. ie: i’ve seen first hand how accountability compromises us.. we end up playing the game to appear accountable..
40 min – they’re all looking around at the id saying.. we have to make it bigger, smarter, better.. but that’s not the problem.. the problem is.. what happens when it goes wrong..
Vinay Gupta (@leashless) tweeted at 6:20 AM – 20 Sep 2018 :
The @mattereum vision is a direct implementation of the original Ethereum vision: we build the legal frameworks so smart contracts really *can* build the next Airbnb or Uber or ultra-efficient supply chain/sharing econ dapp. You just can’t skip the legals in the real world. (http://twitter.com/leashless/status/1042750230880497664?s=17)
Vinay Gupta (@leashless) tweeted at 6:22 AM – 20 Sep 2018 :
It’s been hard for us to communicate the @mattereum vision clearly because it’s so simple: if your smart contracts touch the real world, you need to manage legal rights and legal liability. Per project that’s hard and expensive. We pool those costs for the whole industry as one. (http://twitter.com/leashless/status/1042750777088008192?s=17)
Vinay Gupta (@leashless) tweeted at 6:24 AM – 20 Sep 2018 :
And that, by the way, applies to @EOS_io as much as #ethereum – anybody with smart contracts or on-chain tokenized assets has much the same need for bridges between legal property rights and smart contracts. @mattereum builds and maintains those bridges. It’s exacting and precise (http://twitter.com/leashless/status/1042751356883357696?s=17)
Vinay Gupta (@leashless) tweeted at 6:43 AM on Thu, Sep 20, 2018:
It’s not really such a hard question: what do we have to build to use a smart contract in the real world to, say, rent a diesel generator or a tractor trailer or a warehouse in a P2P B2B marketplace?
We’re just building that: the stuff to underpin the marketplaces @mattereum
why not disengage from the marketplaces.. contracts.. et al..? imagine the energy/time saved doing that..
fighting for the user, issuing her assets since 1995. Assets are soft, users are hard. The issue isn’t the asset, the issue is you.
Ian is mattereum’s chief scientist