george on metamodern ai shaman ness

george pór on metamodern ai.. et al.. in interview by michael garfield 2025 (episode 21 of humans on the loop)

via michel bauwens tweet [https://x.com/mbauwens/status/1940307910451724350]:

* the cultivation of hybrid human-machine wisdom

https://michaelgarfield.substack.com/p/h-21

Interview with George Por, and his “theory of change for a reimagined human being in an age of collaborative planet-scale intelligence.”

notes/quotes from link to 1 hr video:

This week we speak with George Pór, mentee of Doug Englebart, Founder of Future HOW, Enlivening Edge, and Campus Co-Evolve, independent scholar with past academic posts at the London School of Economics, INSEAD, UC Berkeley, California Institute of Integral Studies, and Université de Paris, wisdom-guided AI advisor at River, and consultant who has worked with clients including the UN Development Programme, HP, Greenpeace, Intel, Ford, and the World Wildlife Foundation.

doug engelbart.. et al

George has played vital roles our emerging understanding of collective intelligence, knowledge gardening, and online community. In this episode we explore his latest iteration as a Metamodern AI Shaman — what that means, why he’s promoting this approach for the cultivation of hybrid human-machine wisdom, and his theory of change for a reimagined human being in an age of collaborative planet-scale intelligence.

collective intelligence..

1 min – m: intro – mentee of engelbart

2 min – m: his latest iteration as a metamodern ai shaman.. what that means, why he’s promoting this approach for the cultivation of hybrid human-machine wisdom, and his theory of change for a reimagined human being in an age of collaborative planet-scale intelligence.

7 min – g: i’m a guy from the 60s.. was organizer of anti-govt student movement in hungary.. they called it anti state conspiracy.. that was in my 20s.. awakening to social reality.. commitment to standing time for what i believed in.. 20 mos in jail.. exiled from hungary.. 70s.. radical socialist.. then moved to india.. seeking deeper truth than academic institutions.. became meditation teacher.. then moved to california.. huge moment in my life.. diff culture than there and paris and socialist hungary.. i became a computer sales.. 3 piece suit.. 1982 1st computer.. told friends i was after in psychedelic experiments .. was the same things.. computers allowed me the modem.. allowed me to connect w people everywhere about stuff i was interested in.. major shift in my life.. connecting w people thru computer networks in 80s.. i was one of pioneers of computer communities.. my real agenda wasn’t saving money/time.. but connecting people w each other..

12 min – g: then invited to work on research in computer based networks.. found enlivening edge.. became go to place.. 2015.. that’s in a nutshell.. many stages of spiritual/org world.. i like to stay on moving edge on however evolution is taking us to next stage in tech/org.. t @technoshaman

do wish we could talk again.. ie: there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. so we can org around legit needs..  for (blank)’s sake..

ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition

15 min – m: play and work of show is to demo.. people assign these categories that don’t hold up under scrutiny.. art, living in machinic.. what comes forward in your work is how you rotate/braid things.. emphasize being spacious/playful enough to hold multiple/diff models/perspective

17 min – g: playfulness is really a key ingredient in my life’s work.. playfulness comes in when i don’t prescribe my activities in my calendar to those diff functions.. diff dimensions of my active life.. in the ecosystem of my relationships.. what is the functions i fill in .. never static.. the map helps me realize.. it’s the researcher/mentor/etc part of me that wants to come out and play.. and i let them come out and play.. worked for me until 2 yrs ago.. when became incapable to stick to any roles.. my life became more fluid.. i became just a guy doing this/that.. i respond to those that get me strongest.. and now is ai

20 min – m: you say ‘trying to create liberated zones w/in hierarchical structures‘

don’t think we can get legit liberated.. won’t get to
root of problem

legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do

22 min – m: once you make something legible.. tied to .. regulatory control.. on thinking across scales.. and what you think that means to unrealized potential of communication techs

again.. the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

[‘in an undisturbed ecosystem ..the individual left to its own devices.. serves the whole’ –dana meadows]

there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance..

23 min – g: history of relationship of tech and society.. i don’t think tech drives social evolution.. i think they’re co evolving human needs..

but nothing to date has grokked legit needs.. need a 1st/most :means (nonjudgmental expo labeling) to undo hierarchical listening as global detox so we can org around legit needs

25 min – g: when tech enables.. new forms of org call for new techs.. there is the individual and collective intell..

to me.. that’s cancerous distraction .. ends your search into the potential of communication techs

26 min – g: in current phase.. who is designing ai.. less obsessed with who is using it and for what.. because current dominant mode of production/commerce.. can not further itself w/o creating conditions for transcending it.. unbeknownst to them they are creating possibility for more freedom.. which opens door for new social order

yeah to me.. have it already.. just not seeing it.. we’re missing it

28 min – m: stephanie lep.. deep fake not for disinfo but deep fake for imagination.. a narrative thread that until now were invisible.. this is our bridge to being an ai shaman.. you are already doing this work with ie: chatgpt.. you are less concerned about having your attention hijacked than anyone i know.. talk about reclaiming agency

@stephlepp..?

31 min – g: i’m thinking of the way the metamodern ai shaman.. which is a long journey to become one and then practice it.. reclaiming agency is the first (of 10 000) step.. reclaiming attention.. basic human attributes.. starting with sensing.. sensing of what is.. we as individuals.. but even more as collectives.. as self org collectives..

to me.. if want legit self org ing collectives.. need to try the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

[‘in an undisturbed ecosystem ..the individual left to its own devices.. serves the whole’ –dana meadows]

which we can’t (haven’t to date) seem to let go enough to try/see.. and to me.. that’s what tech can do .. that we can’t seem to .. ie: tech w/o judgment.. via nonjudgmental expo labeling

32 min – g: sensing coupled w sensory organs and turn it into meaning.. agency is based on more accurate sensing.. good meaning making.. then we can have schmachtenbergers omni positive choice making

daniel schmachtenberger

33 min – g: so these 3 factors.. sensing, meaning, choice is the foundation of wisdom and agency.. and it can be trained.. so 3 vectors of emergent qualities wisdom can be educated.. the way of the ai shaman is never solitary.. i envision convening in the near future.. probably next year.. ai shaman communities of practice.. because when whole social system is designed to deprive us from our sovereignty/agency.. then we need each other.. on the journey from collective intell/wisdom.. not just wisdom guided collab hybrid intell.. but wisdom fostering collab hybrid intell.. that’s how i see as way to reclaim agency

again.. oooof.. intellectness as cancerous distraction.. no train ness et al

35 min – m: idea of leaving a tangible trail.. showing our work.. making process visible.. in tandem w these systems.. what are your protocols.. and how are you making them more operable by others

36 min – g: i don’t want to give impression that i’ve developed proven protocols.. but i certainly had some interesting experiments.. where i started extracted principles that led to development of protocols.. i can tell you about meetings/workshops.. i started doing a yr ago.. when people in workshop can ask.. chatgpt ask provocative questions that contribute to journey these workshops are in.. that’s the beginning of developing ai.. making up its mind to provoke humans w challenging questions.. when we design those.. following developmental stages.. that’s how i see we can observe those practices and learn from it.. we can abstract principles from observation.. may develop into higher complex protocols.. but we are not yet in that stage.. but given how rapidly we’re moving.. i’m confident that by end of yr will have those protocols

ooof.. need on the ground ness

40 min – m: on thinking about care.. knowledge management from knowledge ecology/gardening.. you made a distinction as collect intell as quantitative and collect intell that fundamentally comes from caring.. to participate in collective intell one must be aware of meta in the group they are participating.. darwin was concerned w the interiority.. the lifeworlds participating .. the diff between knowledge management and knowledge ecology.. is like diff between being ai whispering and ai shaman.. like the good and true.. aesthetic and moral.. or care

42 min – g: knowledge ecology in the 90s in response to big wave of people from big wave of job lay off.. et al.. i was viscerally responding to that.. i was a frequent speaker in knowledge management .. i would say.. knowledge can’t be managed.. why i had eco fair.. the polarity was in tech/mech view and holistic view of knowledge.. 30 yrs later.. i look at what is happening.. engineers of llms.. also the users who call selves ai whisperers.. i like that term because closest to holistic mindset.. (describes knowledge chart)

to me.. we can throw the word care in there.. but as long as talking educating/training/etc.. not legit care.. cancerous distraction.. graeber violence in care law et al

46 min – g: ai shaman is an ai whisperer who is caring for communities that are increasing at scale.. to rebalance community.. hearing not only individuals but communities..t ai shaman does same w tools of their class.. building on their competence as ai whisperers.. with axiological design/use of ai.. or as you say.. the care for the whole ultimately

i don’t believe people (at least not until we are detox leaped) can do that.. because we can’t hear that deep.. that nonjudgmentally.. aka: tech as nonjudgmental expo labeling

48 min – g: diff views on axiological ness.. i’m more on side of believing that tech can be designed for performing functions for benefit of human emancipation.. or for benefit of slaving people.. but it’s not inherent in tech but in users.. so axiological design is that end phase that can be designed.. given by human community.. when we end blind and start intentional design.. then we design tech for human/social benefit.. all co’s say it’s for benefit of humanity.. maybe.. but goes parallel for benefit for profit.. when someone is seriously prioritizing humanity.. we start tech systems with humanity in mind

again.. yeah.. but to me.. humans can’t do that till we have global detox leap.. otherwise.. keep perpetuating not us ness

mufleh humanity law et al.. and again.. there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. and we’re missing it.. for (blank)’s sake

so wish you could hear this

52 min – m: if really want to optimize for profit.. wouldn’t it be to recycle all of our waste.. you say.. if using ai in team meetings to improve collective wisdom of team.. your asking ai what you’re not noticing.. what do you see road to making this application of not doing what you wanted to do better.. but something foreign.. show ourselves something we don’t already see.. the huge potential..

root of problem

legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do

aka: w/o judgment.. this is the thing ai/tech/whatever could help us with in order to have global detox leap

how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..

ie: imagine if we listen to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & use that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

54 min – g: you’re asking ai and me.. what didn’t i think of.. this was pioneered by a friend of mine.. who kept talking to ai with these kinds of passions.. challenge me.. disrupt me.. that’s a huge step toward wisdom fostering ai..

55 min – g: question you didn’t ask: how my obsession about ai whisperers becoming ai shamans as a part of personal development.. and on other hand my love affair with communities of practice.. how these two relate w scaling the wisdom fostering collab hybrid intell.. scaling that into kind of super organism that is becoming a new branch on the tree of life.. a new revolutionary phase that transcends and includes us as autonomous human beings.. i’m happy you didn’t ask.. i wouldn’t have much more to say about this.. this is at the very edge of my knowing.. the edge that makes me very passionate

because have to give up knowing ness to see.. graeber can’t know law et al

57 min – m: i talked w matt segal on this.. what evidence do we have that it hasn’t already happened.. we’ve become reproductively dependent on our institution as what we recognize as human beings.. in what way is ai doing this in a new emergent way rather than more sophisticated/complex version.. ie: diff from cybernetics inspired tech econ

58 min – g: super organism is not necessarily a good thing.. we clearly need to grow out only from wisdom for studying ai.. not an attribute of ai systems.. but attribute of human and ai collab..

59 min – m: so the calc of self reference.. and care.. to emerging as individuals rather than abstractions.. rather than thinking there’s me and there’s the economy.. like there is the economy and i am of it

1:00 – g: couple yrs ago i discovered i don’t have a body.. similarly when i look up to night’s sky and see millions of stars.. and i am of it.. living in 2 universes.. 1\ i and whole separation disappears 2\ ordinary consciousness universe where i am oscillating between the two w increasing frequency.. so *the challenge i am taking on to moving freely thru these two universes.. so best i can do is keep oscillating.. t

until now.. now have means to take oscillation ness to limit of infinity.. we just haven’t yet let go enough to see/try/trust that

zoom dance et al

1:03 – m: i think if people come away from this with only one thing i think that would be your attention on the oscillating..

g: this was my most enjoyable podcast.. normally i feel exhausted/depressed.. now i feel energized.. now give my shameless plug for helping meta modern shamans to move between universes by choice

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george on ai

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note: wasn’t going to add page.. but then:

1\ resonations of the surreal moment sitting/talking w george in 2011 for contactcon

so wish we could have another convo

  • Occupy Wall Street: Began on September 17, 2011, as a protest against economic inequality, corporate influence, and corruption.
  • ContactCon: Occurred on October 23, 2011, during the Occupy Wall Street movement, providing a platform for discussions and ideas related to the ongoing protests. 

2\ intro when michael says george was mentee of doug engelbart

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