convo w s
adding page as a convo via dm develops.. just as a space for my overthinking.. over connecting .. so as not to overwhelm either one of us
inside (?not sure what i meant by inside/outside)
on legit needs
s: about establishing which were the “real” (usually quite poor) needs of people. It makes me think of Mayakovsky poem: As far as bread is concerned, the matter is clear. as far as peace is concerned, too… I mean, I would not stand for an idea of legit needs that doesn’t include dance, idleness, and play
m: right.. so the question is.. what are the very basics/essentials.. that would allow for everything
s: an idea of legit needs entails an idea of the fundamental nature of human beings – again: freedom, imagination, collective creativity
m: assuming (like david often said) if people were free to truly be themselves.. everything else would take care of itself
s: I am not very fond of Nietzsche, because of his elitarian attitude, but his paradoxical imperative, “become what you are”, is a quite good guideline for my values – only, enlarged to the idea that the goal is to allow everybody to become what they are
believing graeber model law.. ‘you’ll never ever be able to convince a person thru logical argument or even brilliant rhetoric that a free and just society is possible.. you can show them.. you can start doing it‘ – David Graeber
so how to model an alt way for 8b people to live that would be as natural to get to as a toddler figuring out how to walk.. ie: that’s cool.. (walking and/or alt way to live) .. i want to do that.. sans coercioin/training/enclosures
believing in undisturbed ecosystem.. ‘in undisturbed ecosystems ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows
conditions to model a legit alt for 8b: 1\ problem/desires deep enough that 8b already crave/resonate (no coercion) via 2\ mech simple enough 8b could access/use today (no prep/training).. w/in 3\ ecosystem open enough to set/keep 8b free (no enclosures/strings)
You know why? Because the root of our society is based upon totalitarian business dictatorships.
And this oppression will exist and persist as long as the market economy prevails.
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/ZeitgeistFilm/status/1480001168835104772
we need (and now have the means) to go deeper..
@monk51295 everything depends on what you mean by “democracy”: if it is the legitimation of state coercion through the election of representatives, you are right (although it’s rather aristocracy than democracy).
If it is collective ability to decide about our lives, you are wrong https://t.co/c149QwjO7n
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/sonmi451it/status/1480137614850236420
links to david’s possibilities – p2 – democracy was not invented – p 257 for simona (for me on pdf was 346-348)
yeah that ‘depends on how you define’ ness is huge
and the most in [mid p 257 4th para above] – ‘figure out what most members want to do’ is huge
to me this is why public/collective consensus/decisions always oppresses someone(s) .. today i think we can/need to figure that out for all
@monk51295 language is something we create, and something we cannot create – the very image of collective thinking.
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/sonmi451it/status/1480175154781171717
right.. and again to me.. that has the potential of enclosure/control..
i think we’re made for a more spontaneous.. less definable.. means of communicating/connecting
@sonmi451it: you can reverse an entire world by reversing the meaning of a word, like Spinoza did by transforming “Substance” – the very idea of what is unchanging under the everchanging everyday reality into its opposite: an infinite process of self-creation (causa sui)
and that’s what usually philosophers do: that’s why philosophy looks so much as a series of disputes on the “true” meaning on a word
we have all of them, but language is most important. The problem is: if I say “puffo” instead of “democracy”, you will simply not understand. We need either to invent sth that conveys a meaning, or fight to change the common understanding of existing words
yeah.. i think that is how we think (either/or.. meaning) in sea world.. and that’s where i think tech today can make a legit difference.. (in detoxing us from the way we’ve been doing life in sea world).. it can put us in more natural contexts/gatherings with each other and self.. so that our understanding each other/self is (much) less dependent on some set language/definition/word
remember reading this section (for me 346-8) in several versions.. david on consensus.. et al.. also this is huge:
8 – oppression
we tend to be very suspicious of any sort of argument that assumes that certain people’s perspective are more legit than others.. let alone, universally true..
to me.. why any form of collective decisions (any form of democratic admin) is oppression.. and why we need a more idiosyncratic jargon ness of our means to communicate.. mostly though.. believing that if we are all legit free.. the dance would render collective decisions irrelevant.. i think we did invent that idea
back to your ‘I would not stand for an idea of legit needs that doesn’t include dance, idleness, and play’ .. we need a way for there to be no inspectors of inspectors judging who’s right/wrong.. what needs are right/wrong.. what actions are right/wrong.. any form of people telling other people what to do.. so any form of m\a\p
within same time frame as ‘democracy’ twitter convo.. she shared this on fb:
it is collective in the sense that it has to be all of us.. but i don’t think we can see/grok that because we’re so used to.. assuming of.. drenched in .. the idea of collective being about agreeing/consensusing on things (i do think today we have the tools/means for collective – meaning all in sync – imagination.. ie: imagine if we)
i don’t think we get.. the possibilities of the sort of being ness of an ‘undisturbed ecosystem ..the average individual, species, or population, left to its own devices, behaves in ways that serve and stabilize the whole..’ –Dana Meadows