douglas & jamie on team human


jun 2020 – 80 min video – Imagined Futures, Douglas Rushkoff & Jamie Wheal

found here:

Brilliant @rushkoff and #JamieWheal on how we build Team Human in a #postpandemic world @WisdomRebel
Original Tweet:

from a zoom session via rebel wisdom (on video page):

Douglas Rushkoff (Team Human) and Jamie Wheal (Stealing Fire) are two of the foremost modern historians of *cutting edge transformational culture, but until now have never been in dialogue with each other. For this one off event they discuss the potential future of humans and technology.

*i don’t know.. i would hope.. but from what i’ve seen.. seem to still be holding onto the middle.. enough.. to not be transformational

Faced with broken economics, powerful tech platforms and information warfare, how do we stay authentically human and work together sustainably?

great question.. mostly by listening & connecting deeper.. to undo our hierarchical listening ie: 2 convers as infra

notes/quotes from video:

24 min – j: the dusting off of community.. get sorted at community level.. does seem practical.. but not about personal morality.. but connectivity.. home grown team human.. requires responsible self reliant individuals

25 min – d: once trying to get people to do something.. back at social control.. how dare i be the one trying to get others to do something else.. more a gentle unfolding than a reaching toward

a dusting off ness –  undoing our hierarchical listening ie: 2 convers as infra

26 min – d: has our job changed from saving the world to doing palliative care.. how can we be kindest about the destruction.. or is it about keeping this thing going


28 min – j: what i’m hanging all my hope on is not the passivity of palliative care.. but in the agency of realizing that the time for cherished outcomes has past.. time to set aside childish things.. the asymmetrical amplifier of human courage which sends shock waves thru time/history.. if we can all  (it’s always been tiny pockets that have shaped the course).. can we get to that.. we’re stuck.. so let’s sing our love song.. free to do only thing which is mine.. which is make up.. that redemptive capacity.. radically initiating each other into .. a *gnostic embody of the nature of things.. and not peace out of clock time.. what transformative potential might that hold for us

wow.. i don’t know..

i think we focus to much on the *knowledge of things

30 min – d: holding onto the paradoxical nature of human existence.. holding both in balance..

non binary ness

31 min – d: people thinking so far gone only way out is thru

32 min – j: caution on the perils of utopian thinking.. of any stripe.. the moment the ends are heaven on earth.. then it’s anything it takes to get there.. we’ve seen that movie.. agnostic liberalism.. never going to get to singing kumbaya.. (rather).. combating back and forth for the infinite game (of the enlightenment experiment) and for the ability for us all to keep playing it.. ‘can’t tell’ ness is going to make really strange bedfellows


35 min – d: yeah.. in star wars.. don’t know who really is good/bad.. the question is whether the enlightenment experiment was so flawed.. so much about platonic ideals.. so separate from women and people of color and the ground that it was incapable.. so idealized.. disconnected from real experience.. in some ways.. the people trying to save the world are part of the problem.. i’m trying to unwind of my own projection of how i want things to be

let’s just facil daily curiosity  ie: cure ios city

no end in sight.. just an infra to set/keep us all free

37 min – d: so the brilliant well meaning counter culture can become just as guilty of the exclusionary thinking

wow.. no duh

literacy and numeracy both elements of colonialism/control/enclosure.. we need to calculate differently and stop measuring things

d: almost like.. how do you sit with this.. it’s a hard moment to sit.. w/o being like.. should we be in the streets.. what project.. alt currency.. school.. it’s a tough moment

38 min – j: if we entertain the idea that cherished outcomes are part of the problem.. we want to commit to some version of agonistic liberalism.. to expand the end game for all of us including my enemies.. if we’re into that then we’re into.. letting a 1000 fires burn

so you’re saying.. spend our days in response..? to issues.. rather than living like we’re free

40 min – j: keeps referencing jordan p – ‘you should choose your hammer’ – something in this world only you can do.. and then let us crowdsource the wisdom/innovations/solutions

partially right on.. but not about wisdom/solutions.. about interconnectedness of our fittingness

what we want to crowdsource is that fittingness.. of each of the 8b people.. using that data to augment our interconnectedness

j: there will be 8b or 50b innovations/solutions and 99% of them will (snuff out).. but among them somewhere the flame will persist and will catch and will kindle.. and that arguably is the best of the free market ethos .. which we’ve never really got to try

that’s sounding like a cherished outcome to me..

the idea is to realize what happens (when we’re all legit free) is what happens..  no measurement of the size of some fire/innovation/solution et al

41 min – j: free the market .. of econ/ideas/innovation.. and future proving.. but let us all get on it

d: once you free the market.. you scale solutions to where they are rather than force them

honestly.. getting tired of listening to these guys perpetuate the system we’re in

43 min – d: part of my feeling hypocritical.. being this intellectual.. part of why i want to just be a teacher locally.. i just want to somehow stay in service.. rather that what the opposite is


let go..

huge red flag if you think people need (your) training

44 min – q & a from rest on zoom call starts

46 min – j: we need to bring death back and make it an orientation to how we live (on people trying to create immortality)

47 min – d: i feel ok about dying .. but about death of civilization.. what if everything dies.. how does one come to terms with that.. it’s so hopelessly linear.. than reincarnation et al.. that i’m trying to adopt myself.. as a western linear person.. but.. even if we are going to go on.. we have to accept that possibility as well.. ie: infinity might not be mine

51 min – d: all those billionaires we’re talking about.. they’re just scared to die.. when you are afraid.. don’t trust manna coming from heaven next day.. and you get worms..

55 min – j: if we want something to work have to recognized better angels and the bad.. how do we play well together.. when stakes are high.. needs to be some version of finding a way to meet everybody’s basic needs (ie: ubi).. so that striving for competition and accomplishment is at least hypothetical off the table..t

this is one of our huge downfalls.. we don’t really know what our basic needs are.. we need to listen deeper.. ie: maté basic needs go beyond food, water, shelter (things you’d buy with that ubi)..

we need to get to our essence so that instead of dealing with some type of exchange for supposed basic needs.. we’re dealing w the energy of 8b alive people.. who grok the manna ness (already in us)

56 min – j: not the trap.. someone is going to break the pact.. and it might as well be me..

yeah.. that’s precisely because we’re not addressing the deeper needs first

57 min – j: ie of community where there was explicit social shaming of taking more than your fair share.. if one .. trashing commons.. they were actually socially shunned and shamed

huge red flag we’re doing it wrong.. shaming et al

j: so some version of a ubi.. and some form healthy pro social shaming.. which is diff than guilt..

this is why ubi (any form of measuring/accounting) won’t work.. unless it’s part of some planned obsolescence

ie: ubi as temp placebo.. needs met w/o money..people forget about measuring

58 min – j: guilt is unhealthy.. but shame is.. i have transgressed the highest norms of my society and i am responsible for atoning for them.. and if we have that at the base there.. is there a chance for us to basically re normalize the commons and pro social behavior


that base is cancerous to common\ing et al


1\ undisturbed ecosystem (common\ing) can happen

2\ if we create a way to ground the chaos of 8b free people

d: and as you know.. now most of the social shaming is being done by the wicked on the good.. and the people who do the shameful stuff are shameless right now

wish you could hear yourselves..

you just said didn’t know who was good/bad.. but now labeling some bad..  some good..

that’s the thing about shaming.. who decides..

59 min – d: my work has always been to try to reveal the underlying os’s that people accept.. ie: money.. what would happen if we created money optimized for the velocity of currency rather than extraction of capital.. what would that look like.. i’m feeling like the path is the retrieval of medieval econ mechs.. commons, market moneys, local currencies..


1:00 – d: subsidiaries are answers to last 2 questions.. no grow more than need.. these models exist.. just that now when i talk to people in power.. they really don’t believe they’re possible..

just as you don’t believe letting go of any form of measuring/accounting

1:01 – d: you know.. ubi works out mathematically.. it just doesn’t work out in their understanding of how money works.. t

mathematically maybe.. but it doesn’t work out for humanity

let go

1:07 – j: up until now.. that waking up process has been individual.. for me the true missing link.. what if we assemble from our dozen perfected human.. the sum total of all our relationships.. but none of us grab the ring.. and then transfer to that hologram that is the one.. metabolized by the 12.. can we use that to .. get toward.. all of us ness


thurman interconnectedness lawwhen you understand interconnectedness it makes you more afraid of hating than of dying – Robert Thurman

1:11 – d: to me the crown is about the opposite of power.. in order to admin what we’re doing.. fallen into trap thinking our kings are actually powerful.. when they’re just admin.. if we started to see leadership as a social construction.. we’d be better off

leader ness as red flag

1:15 – d: in some ways i feel i have more hope than before.. i just don’t have climactic hope..



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