m of care – may 2 25

Michael Hudson & Jayati Gosh in conversation with David Adler

via tweet [https://x.com/Graeber_social/status/1917178573044982141]:

On Friday, we are holding a Youtube Live event with Michael Hudson and David Adler. They will discuss Debt, Empire and the Future of the economy. Here is the link to the stream! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU_uPaxsGbE]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayati_Ghosh: Jayati Ghosh (born 16 September 1955) is an Indian development economist. She taught economics at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi for nearly 35 years, and since January 2021 she has been Professor of Economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, USA. Her core areas of study include international economics and globalisation, employment patterns in developing countries, macroeconomic policy, and gender and development ..In 2021 she was appointed to the WHO Council on the Economics of Health for All, chaired by Mariana Mazzucato. She’s a member of the Club of Rome.

mariana mazzucato

looks like it’s now devika dutt @devikadutt rather than jayati https://www.devikadutt.com/: I am a Lecturer in Development Economics at King’s College, London. My research is focused on the political economy of foreign exchange intervention, central bank swap agreements, the political economy of development policy (especially as it relates to international financial institutions), and macroeconomic policy in developing economies. . I have a PhD in Economics from the University of Massachusetts Amherst, with a specialization in International Finance, Macroeconomics, Political Economy, and Development. . I am also a member of the Steering Group and a co-Founder of Diversifying and Decolonising Economics (D-Econ), on the editorial board of the Review of Radical Political Economics, on the Management Committee of the Association for Heterodox Economics, and a coordinator of the Neoliberalism and Contemporary Capitalism Working Group of the International Initiative for Promoting Political Economy. . I have a Masters in Economics from Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, and a Bachelors (BA Honours) in Economics from Hindu College, University of Delhi.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Adler_(political_economist): David R. K. Adler, @davidrkadler also known as David Adler is a political economist, researcher, and writer. Adler is the Co-General Coordinator of the Progressive International. [We unite, organize, and mobilize progressive forces.] His work focuses on a new internationalism to restore the balance between the Global North and Global South.. Adler played an important role in Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s visit to Latin America in August 2023.. Before joining Progressive International, David was part of the foreign policy advisory team for U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders. David also directed policy for Yanis Varoufakis and the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 (DiEM25). During this time, he worked as a coordinator for the Green New Deal movement in Europe.. Adler has written articles about climate change and politics for the New York Times, The Guardian, and El Diario in Spanish. He has also co-written several articles with Yanis Varoufakis.. As a Fulbright Scholar at the Colegio de México in Mexico City, he created a housing strategy for the Housing Commission of the Mexican Senate. David also worked at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, where he studied the Delhi Development Authority and how bureaucracy affects slum redevelopment

[https://museum.care/events/debt-empire-and-the-future-dialogues-with-michael-hudson-part-1/]:

Debt, Empire, and the Future: Michael Hudson & Jayati Gosh in conversation with David Adler

[ended up being devika dutt @devikadutt rather than jayati]

The first part of this series will take part on May 2, 12pm NYC / 5pm London time.

If one starts poking at the history of debt, what one discovers is not a history of honor, or integrity, but a history of violence, slavery, and war. The world’s great empires were built on debt, and the moral claims of creditors have always been enforced by the threat of force.

Graeber insisted that the so-called “debts” of the Global South to the North are, in fact, a reversal of justice: it is the North that owes an unpayable debt to the South, not the other way around. His anthropological project was to unmask these power relations and insist on a vision of humanity based on solidarity, mutual aid, and the right of all people to imagine and build more just worlds.

A central figure in this ongoing conversation is internationally renowned economist Michael Hudson, whose pioneering research on the history of debt, finance, and imperialism deeply influenced Graeber’s thinking. In fact, Graeber wrote his landmark book Debt: The First 5,000 Years building on Hudson’s foundational studies of ancient debt systems and their role in shaping societies and empires. Hudson’s work exposed how debt has long been used as an instrument of domination, a theme Graeber expanded through anthropological analysis to show its impact on global inequality and the continued exploitation of the Global South.

In this spirit, each episode will feature Michael Hudson in conversation with leading thinkers, activists, and economists—such as Yanis Varoufakis, Steve Keen, Ann Pettifor, and others. Together, they will discuss:

How the legacies of imperialism and debt continue to shape the world order;

What true economic sovereignty for the Global South could look like;

Practical strategies for rethinking value, debt, and care in a changing world.

ie: a nother way.. via a sabbatical ish transition

These dialogues continue Graeber’s and Hudson’s shared commitment to exposing injustice and imagining new possibilities for global solidarity and economic transformation.

The schedule of the discussion series:

Friday, May 2;

Monday, June 30;

Wednesday, July 2;

Friday, August 1.

notes/quotes from livestream:

adler: what it might mean to transcend c

[not taking thorough notes.. just stuff new/diff ish to me]

hudson: left out of the convo.. the moral.. have made it seem not a politic measure.. but nature/natural.. in indigenous debt was integrating.. tied people together.. interfamily debts were w/in limits to be paid.. if not would have fallen into bondage.. [much later in his talk and in centuries].. interest was simply a cost to doing business.. interest was payment for a service.. and today that idea is built into gdp.. they’re (landlords, creditors, bankers) are providing a service.. rather than impoverishing.. so whole moral dimension became.. how do we squeeze out enough money.. became purely a tech question.. david brought this to forefront.. profit or serve society

[76 present now]

adler: michael did past.. devika you do present.. renewed forms of dependency.. how can we take michael’s story.. how should we understand the long legacy thru lens of 3rd world ism.. global south..

[89 present now]

dutt: decolonization was a landscape global south was ravaged.. w newly independent govts of newly independent nations.. very challenging.. debt not necessarily a moral thing (in c) .. it’s essential.. this is context in which nations are emerging.. from this stand point.. in absence of reparation.. debt isn’t a moral feeling.. it’s an investment into the future.. sorry.. this seems obvious.. but important back drop .. not entirely sovereign unless can produce/acquire means of living.. lot of developing countries extracted.. got together to figure out how to do that (ie: sovereignty for global south).. to reverse drain of resources.. this dependency.. process of industrialization.. happened thru import substitution.. meant had to have dollars for you import.. binding unless could rapidly develop.. situation not necessarily natural but manufactured by post colonial system which is rigged against them.. have to compete w countries that have unfair advantage over you.. so we’re in the system ensures perpetuated in subordination.. so how to gain support always marked as ‘communist’ (meaning bad term).. means govt/cia would interfere w your govt.. this is an under appreciated aspect of global building.. being beaten down to submission by brute force.. this is documented.. set stage for 1\ beaten in submission/conform/not-be-a-threat.. set stage for many debt crisis.. govt’s ran out of dollars.. 2\ domestic elites benefit from this.. came w suppression of popular movements for improving lives of regular people.. so where are we now.. as of 2023.. 11.3 trill dollars.. 54 countries in debt distress.. et al.. situation in which debt could used to improve lives of reg people in south.. not situation we’re in now.. 2020-22 during pandemic.. same.. this punishing mech of debt.. now.. w chaos et al.. added vulnerability to countries were not necessarily debt countries.. still in situation of subjugation.. w a new colonial system which debt is the main tool of subjugation even though most countries officially sovereign.. imf very unpopular.. no reason debt needs to be impunative.. if like michael mentioned.. investment to future.. unless large number of people.. leaves you out in cold w/o support.. makes it hard to repudiate the step w/o reverse consequences.. there are causes for hope.. the unpopularity of imf.. et al.. nobody has faith any more in global system..t

perfect opp to get to the root of problem

legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do

how we gather in a space is huge.. need to try spaces of permission where people have nothing to prove to facil curiosity over decision making.. because the finite set of choices of decision making is unmooring us.. keeping us from us..

ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

there’s a legit use of tech (nonjudgmental exponential labeling) to facil the seeming chaos of a global detox leap/dance.. the unconditional part of left-to-own-devices ness.. for (blank)’s sake.. and we’re missing it

ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition

adler: questions coming in are.. how can we break with this.. lessons/guidelines/vision..t

how out? graeber model law (graeber revolution law): ‘you’ll never ever be able to convince a person thru logical argument or even brilliant rhetoric that a free and just society is possible.. you can show them.. you can start doing it‘ – David Graeber

the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

[‘in an undisturbed ecosystem ..the individual left to its own devices.. serves the whole’ –dana meadows]

ie: a sabbatical ish transition

hudson: continuing till can use debt to fund (paraphrase)

adler: a very clear sense that something must be done.. why struggling so much..t

yeah.. opp is prime.. and we’re missing it.. because not letting go enough to see/try the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

in chat: Jon SchmittPolitics is dead. There is only podcasters talking to laptop dwellers now ;)

dutt: need to reclaim movements.. challenge to fight moements everywhere so we can build this leadership/movement against.. one of biggest impedements

any form of re ness is already an impediment.. a cancerous distraction

adler: q&a – on how it’s become more difficult to change because of past 50 yrs..

hudson: part of problem is academic system.. economists don’t talk about debt.. the we who owe is 99%.. little while ago.. sex couldn’t be talked about until freud.. now it’s debt because no solution to debt problem in nice convo.. debts can’t be paid.. maths underlying academic theory are less sophisticated than those taught in babylonia in 1800 bc.. ie: how long to take for debt to double .. et al.. proved to be impossible.. so narrative of analyzing debt problem has turned into distraction rather than doing something about it.. almost have to start another discipline.. i call it futurism..

oi.. the cancerous distraction.. is of math and men ness et al.. any form of m\a\p

hudson: have to replace academic econ w reality econ..t

rather with legit diff econ.. ie: oikos (the economy our souls crave).. ‘i should say: the house shelters day-dreaming, the house protects the dreamer, the house allows one to dream in peace.’ – gaston bachelard, the poetics of space

otherwise.. same song.. ie: whac-a-mole-ing ness of sea world

hudson: whole vocab has to be popularized..t

oi.. graeber model law via idiosyncratic jargon as undefinable vocab via nonjudgmental expo labeling

adler: i can think of no better call to rallying of the odious ness.. where debt won’t/can’t be paid.. it’s our task to revive/rejuv.. break the taboo.. what might a new vision be..t

need a means to get to root of problem

legit freedom will only happen if it’s all of us.. and in order to be all of us.. has to be sans any form of measuring, accounting, people telling other people what to do

ie: imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)

the thing we’ve not yet tried/seen: the unconditional part of left to own devices ness

[‘in an undisturbed ecosystem ..the individual left to its own devices.. serves the whole’ –dana meadows]

ie: whatever for a year.. a legit sabbatical ish transition

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museum of care meetings

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