adding while taking in both Peter Gray‘s article (from 2011) on teaching w coercion and Jerry Michalski‘s new video series on design from trust


intro’d to Peter’s piece here

Lainie Liberti (@ilainie) tweeted at 6:36 AM – 22 Sep 2018 :
Consider this (great read) from & written by Dr. Peter Gray:
WHEN is teaching an act of aggression? My answer is that any coercive teaching is an act…

wondering.. when is teaching not coercive.. seems modeling (unschooled mom ness.. usefully preoccupied et al.. h&g ness) gets more at the fluidity of curiosity..

imagine 7bn tapping into that.. ie: cure ios city

Even today, obedience is the main lesson of schooling, and punishment is the main vehicle for teaching it.

see ‘schooled’ as a border.. ie: you’re in or you’re out.. siddiqi border law very fitting

What about the teaching that goes on in modern schools? Surely we have made progress. Or have we?

The lessons in schools are still mostly about obedience. Children must obey the school rules, which they have no voice in creating, and must obey all of the “requests” (which are really demands) made by their teachers. They must do their assignments, all in accordance with the teachers’ precise directions on how and when to do them, whether or not the assignments seem reasonable or worthwhile. The children who get into trouble in school today are still the ones who don’t obey.In fact, today’s children must spend far greater portions of their lives obeying schoolteachers than did children of any time in the past. We rarely admit it, but teaching in schools today is at least as much about breaking children’s wills, and getting them to follow the teacher’s will, as it was in times past. In fact, if children are too willful in school today we drug them.

Beating is no longer the choice mode of punishment in schools (though corporal punishment is still permitted in 20 US states). Now the primary tool of school coercion is the grade. Teachers, parents, and society in general drill into children’s heads the idea that high grades are essential to success in life. You need at least minimal grades to pass from one level to the next in school and eventually get out of it. You need higher grades to get into college. You need the highest grades to get into any of the “best” colleges; and many kids are made to feel that if they don’t *get into one of those “best” colleges they will be lifetime failures, disappointments to all who know them. **I’ve known kids who would far rather get a beating than a B. Brutality of punishment is in the eye of the punished.

*what gets you in ness

**on emotional abuse sometimes harder – more enduring than physical

Hmm…. Are we really more humane in our methods of schooling now than we were when beatings were the norm? Perhaps we feel better about administering grades than beatings, but do the kids feel better? Our method of punishment in school today seems to create more anxiety, more depression, more anger, more cynicism, and more cheating than did the beatings of times past. You got the beating and it was over; but grades and the anxiety they create never end, at least not as long as you are in school. Hey, I’m not for going back to beatings. I’m for chucking out the whole system, as those of you who’ve read my previous posts know.

why change outside school system

suffocating from the day.. the death of us..

Now, to the question posed in the title to this essay: When is teaching an act of aggression? My answer is that any coercive teaching is an act of aggression. Any teaching that that is not wanted by the student, but is forced on the student, is an act of aggression. Any educational use of rewards or punishments to make students learn is an act of aggression.

et me be clear in stating that I am not against all uses of punishments and rewards. Every society in one way or another punishes people who violate the serious rules of that society. I’m not against punishment for crimes. Even hunter-gathers, who are so reluctant to use violence (see my last post), have ways of punishing people who violate the core rules of their society. If a hunter-gatherer adult engages in some taboo act–such as trying to boss other people around, or having sex with a first-degree relative or with someone else’s spouse, or refusing to share food, or striking a child–the whole social group may, in concert, punish that person. The first round of punishment involves ridicule.

imagining more things like .. your own song ness

Is it possible to separate education of children from punishment of children?

i don’t think so

Is punishment always an act of aggression or not?

i think so

Is reward essenstially no different from punishment?

same to me

Is my hypothesis that punishment makes the punisher angry toward the punished, not just the reverse, wild speculation?

i don’t think so


voluntary compliance.. et al

voluntary compliance .. manufacturing consent.. wilde not us law.. freedom.. spinach or rock.. simulated thinking.. et al

eisentein principle law