nora on stages

Metamodern Spirituality | Advancing the Stage Theory Debate (w/ Daniel Görtz & Nora Bateson)

In their first-ever conversation on the topic together, Daniel Görtz and Nora Bateson join Brendan to talk about stage theory. Since Nora’s social media post declaring developmental stage theories “BS” and “colonial as hell,” the value and legitimacy of stage models has been a fervent topic of debate within the liminal web. In this conversation, Daniel and Nora are given space to more completely express their opinions on the topic before engaging with one another directly in discussion/debate in an attempt to gain a deeper appreciation and integration of one another’s views.

nora bateson on stages from 17- 35 min

22 min – nora: this language that came with industrialism are so deeply rooted.. in even the way research is done.. most of the time research is done by pulling something out of context.. and looking at that in its decontectualized process.. my grandfather said.. this is a vulgarity.. a violence to nature.. because things don’t grow by themselves.. t

like research ness of whales in sea world.. we have no idea what legit free people are like

23 min – nora: where stage theory drives me bonkers.. where’s the edge of the deer?

25 min – nora: how do you define an individual organism.. (rather) how are all these organisms shaping each other.. how are we going to describe learning.. it’s in the mutual learn of the abductive process.. when talking about stage theory ..we have to ask selves.. what world are we speaking thru..

27 min – nora: stage theory is real because it’s been proved.. by the research that took things out of context that studied the individual organisms.. and so.. i don’t know how to even address it .. if you start to take this notion of how.. and in what millions of ways.. the industrial metaphor has permeated our ways of being.. you start to look for efficiency, bettering, optimizing, quicker, better, faster, more.. and the hypothesis itself.. there’s a trap here..

whalespeak ness.. and hari rat park law et al

28 min – nora: if i want to say stage theory is real or not real.. in any case.. what i’m doing is making a prescription from an existing set of epistemological premises that is completely laden with presuppositions of an industrial world.. and that industrial world is absolutely wanting to isolate the individual, chart the linear directionality of its development.. and to do so is dangerous.. this is why i was upset about it

29 min – nora: if you do that.. you are not able to actually perceive all the contextual.. you could say.. be more empathetic.. compassionate.. et al.. but they’ve learned to be in a world that is nothing like that and they’re surviving.. that is the worst thing they could do .. in a world that is brutal.. is have more trust.. be optimistic.. the best way to get caught in an abusive relationship is to have empathy

costello screen\service law et al

humanity needs a leap.. to get back/to simultaneous spontaneity .. simultaneous fittingness.. everyone in sync..

30 min – nora: so you can’t isolate these characteristics that you might want to develop.. nor can you isolate the individual.. honestly.. i don’t even think we can isolate our own thinking on this subject w/o recognizing that there is a tautology that we’re inside of here

sea world

nora: so .. what prompted my post.. was that i had heard about some things happening where some people i knew were getting surveyed to have their levels of this/that measured.. and one of them didn’t measure up to this survey.. and the pain that came out of that.. and the incredible hubris of that i have the metric by which i will assess how you are developing.. t.. when that development and those ways of learning are happening in many transcontextual ways that you can never imagine somebody else’s experience.. in fact.. they don’t know

full stop.. any form of m\a\p

31 min – nora: where’s the learning.. is it in the muscle.. the mind.. the audience.. in a lack of words..?.. i’d say it’s in all of those things.. but if you have a metric that you’re placing on one of them and you say this person doesn’t measure up.. you’ve missed this incredible richness of learning.. et al.. that person can shut down..

we need to let go of judge\ment (other-ing).. and realize our interconnectedness.. i know you ness

red flags – any form of telling people what to do et al

33 min – nora: bigger faster more are premised on idea that you can isolate and someone can have a rubric.. my question would be why.. why not explore the multi contextual processes.. why do we need to hold a rubric to somebody else’s development.. who’s holding the rubric

literacy and numeracy both elements of colonialism/control/enclosure.. we need to calculate differently and stop measuring things et al

41 min – daniel: i agree that most of the uses of stage theory.. control/hierarchization.. not only wrong but deeply harmful.. i think a higher level of stage theory would deal with hierarchy in a productive manner


need: means to undo our hierarchical listening

43 min – nora: my issue here is with the whole idea.. that somebody can have a predetermined idea of what somebody else’s development should look like and measure them accordingly.. that’s where i feel the ghost of eugenics.. the idea of accounting of somebody else’s growth thru any rubric is in itself is holding some deep industrial habits.. t

any form of m\a\p

44 min – daniel: if you could trace.. and say.. i would do that as well if i were in his shoes..

45 min – nora: that is basically what i’m saying..

daniel: so you’re developing a theory

nora: no..we’re responding in context.. they’re just doing what they did

responding ness is a killer.. red flag

46 min – nora: how do you know when your stage theory is a hubris..

skipped to

69 min – nora: if you give people things to make connections between.. we have to insert this into them.. that is a map territory error.. you can’t go in and teach that (compassion/empathy).. empathy to one person is the ability to manipulate.. i would never say that right wing or gang members are less developed.. just diff developed.. they have very developed sensitivities.. my question is.. how do we begin to perceive each others sensitivities..

nora on people making decisions based on context and other two guys saying.. that would be a stage.. nora would say.. not a stage.. but learning to be in a situation.. and it’s very difficult to perceive that from the outside.. w/o some hubris..

1:14 – nora: there is a real need to be able to talk about development that doesn’t isolate the individual.. and this is critical at this moment.. how do we talk about development in a way that isn’t about the individual unit.. so i do agree with you.. we need to talk about development.. *but i don’t think we’re there yet..t

*oi.. sounds like a stage.. ? there are no levels.. why can’t we let go of that..?

and.. why do we even need to talk about development..?

i think from your first comments.. all our research ness is from whales in sea world.. so we have no idea what legit free people are like.. i think they would not be interested in talking about development.. they’d be too preoccupied being.. too preoccupied being free..