gabor on missing the boat
gabor maté interviewed by glenn greenwald on – On Rising Depression, SSRI Medications, and Spiritual Disease: Dr. Gabor Maté | SYSTEM UPDATE
via gabor tweet [https://x.com/DrGaborMate/status/1703189175741432076?s=20]:
Here’s the video of just my segment on Glenn’s program last night: [https://rumble.com/v3i8iqs-on-rising-depression-ssri-medications-and-spiritual-disease-dr.-gabor-mat-s.html]
notes/quotes from 37 min video:
2 min – g: what is it you felt you had new to discuss in this book
basically in previous books covered issues of mental/physical health and how they relate to life experience.. but in this book look at it in a whole broad cultural level.. western med separates mind from body and individual from environ.. but scientifically speaking.. not to mention pov of traditional wisdom.. mind/body are not separable and the individual manifests something about the culture in which they live..
3 min – so what we consider normal in this society is very often very toxic.. very unhealthy.. manifests a social malaise.. and unfortunately this recognition of the unity of individual and environ just not recognized in mainstream circles..
krishnamurti measure law.. hari present in society law.. et al
4 min – (on explosive increase of anti depressant meds in last decade)
5 min – 2020 also reported diagnosis of anxiety went up 36% in one yr.. 2017 40 m adults suffer from anxiety disorder.. anti depressants also prescribed for that.. so stats for all mental health disorders.. twice as many americans died in one year of drug overdoses than vietnam and iraq wars put together.. and numbers keep rising so something happening to mental health of pop.. and response of med professions is to see it as bio problem purely and try to change bio of brain
6 min – anti depressants can help some people.. i’ve taken them w benefit.. but 1\ don’t work as meant to for a lot of people 2\ rational for use is scientifically untenable.. unproven 3\ biggest problem.. even if they work.. only dealing with symptom .. not underlying problem.. and our profession is just not educated to deal w underlying dynamics that lead to what we call mental illness we just deal w the manifestation.. so we’re actually missing the boat when it comes to treating people.. t
huge huge huge..
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature as global detox/re\set.. so we can org around legit needs
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
7 min – some of that is due to the narrowness of med ideology.. some due to very clever manip of research by drug co’s.. and in general in western capitalist ideology that people are individuals and their problems are individuals and let’s not look at the broader social and traumatic issues that really cause mental illness
8 min – when i was a fam physician i drank the kool aid for a while.. ie: said.. lack of serotonin.. let’s give you a prescription to increase it.. and this will fix your problem.. sometimes it did.. but what i was saying was sci hogwash.. zero evidence that low serotonin levels cause depression.. the ideology that it does was cynically promoted by pharma co’s despite any evidence
9 min – robert whitaker used to be head of med publications at harvard.. wrote a book anatomy of an epidemic.. sincere believer that lack of serotonin causes depressions till he started looking for research.. research was funded by pharma co’s..
11 min – anti depressants.. any med.. is a bit of an experiment because every person is discrete/diff.. lit via pharma co’s min risk and max benefits.. again to be clear.. sometimes they do work.. but again.. 1\ not as frequently 2\ cause side effects more frequently 3\ don’t address underlying problem
13 min – glenn: what if did find something that worked more and risked less.. why does it matter so much to deal w underlying symptoms
just dealing w facts doesn’t deal w causes.. as long as we focus only on alleviation of symptoms.. won’t look at broad social causes driving this epidemic.. suicides, adhd, addictions, depression, anxiety.. and every other mental health disorder.. so it allows us to ignore what’s really necessary to pay attention to ..t which is the broad social/culture factors which amongst other things we touch upon in our book.. so that’s the one problem
warning ness et al.. and why i’m all in
email time – 6 rs later..
14 min – the other problem is.. nothing works permanently once you’ve taken it.. anti depressants don’t cure/change brain so that once you stop them brain is fixed.. as matter of fact.. very difficult to get out these meds.. significant withdrawal symptoms.. so people stay on them for much longer than need to just because coming off them can be so painful/distressing
and number three.. just the med themselves even when do work.. don’t give person the capacity to free themselves from all psych damage/hurts that drive that depression in the first place..
15 min – just the word depression.. ‘to push down’.. in depression people push down emotions.. had to as children.. so disconnected w selves.. so not dealing w underlying issue
glen: want to spend rest of time on underlying issues.. is it possible that significance increase in people id ing as being depressed has to do w reduction of stigma of seeking help
17 min – theoretically possible.. but when look at overwhelming numbers.. people don’t kill selves because stigma destroyed.. people kill themselves because desperate.. children don’t scatter (book title) minds because legit socially to tune out.. they tune out because under stress and tuning out becomes their coping mech so don’t suffer so much from the stress.. same w depression.. people don’t depress emotions because all of a sudden permissible to talk about depression.. people push down emotions because early environs forbid them to experience themselves authentically.. i don’t think removal of stigma is responsible for number of people.. i think it has to do w stress of modern society
18 min – glen shows suicide chart from 2011 to 2022.. upwhill.. what are primary cuases
19 min – addiction properly understood is not a disease or genetic nor is it a free choice.. it’s a desperate attempt to escape human suffering and when you ask people .. what do you get form addiction.. they all get: something like stress relief.. numbing form emotional pain.. sense of control/agency/belonging.. all of these are essential human attributes.. and the addicted person just wants to feel like a normal human being.. so my mantra.. don’t ask why the addiction.. ask why the pain.. so have to look at their lives.. and .. it’s trauma/adversity/stress/emotional-pain..
20 min – if look at depression .. what gets pushed down are people’s emotions.. their legit anger.. this happens when children abused.. or just not seen/received/understood.. attuned-with.. valued for who they are.. they have to pretend to be somebody else.. they have to suppress their emotions in order to be acceptable by their environ.. and in a society where the parenting environ itself.. due to no fault of the parents .. but because of stresses of society is becoming more and more volatile.. fewer and fewer parents able to be there .. so more have to push down feelings.. so going to see more depression
maté parenting law.. graeber parent/care law.. et al
21 min – if look at broad social causes.. it’s everything you’ve talked about on your program.. can trace the rising ineq to mental health.. can trace globalization increasing isolation rise in adhd/obesity/diabetes.. social factors generated voluminously in individualistic aggressive capitalistic society.. *which are loss of control, fear, conflict, uncertainty and lack of info..
*but too.. none of these are legit.. ie: taleb antifragile law.. safety addiction ness.. and that no info to date is legit.. and that info isn’t what our souls crave.. meaning.. none of these are what legit free people would be about.. would all be irrelevant s.. now just cancerous distractions
22 min – put millions of people under such conditions.. going to see a rise in all manner of pathologies..
23 min – glenn: if look at charts.. has to be something common to people going on
24 min – loneliness and isolation has become modern epidemic.. loneliness significant factor for mental/physical illness as smoking 15 cigs a day (both using brazil culture as ie).. for millions of years.. species lived in small band h/g groups.. hour like that 5 min in industrial.. it’s a toxic culture because it denies what we as a speices have evolved over eons.. and this is totally unnatrual as to make us sick .. .. and that needs to be recognized.. on all levels.. polit/spirit/ed/med
not deep enough.. we have been in sea world since forever.. not just last 5 min
27 min – glenn: brings up hari interview.. do you think they were right to be as alarmist as they were and what effects covid have
hari rat park law
29 min – first.. no doubt that covid isolation increased fam violence, child abuse, addictive behavors, .. they were quite right to worry about that.. in beginning i was kind of a skeptic.. thought only later when look back would know.. then i jumped on socialization bandwagon.. ‘have to do everything can do stop spread of virus’.. in retro.. i go back to my original skeptical position.. that we paid a huge price.. didn’t consider broad social cost.. that’s a convo we need to have not just to do a retro on past but to guide us in future.. social/psych impacts of what we were
doing did not form a properly creditive part of convo it should have.. hari raised that alarm and they were quite right to do so
31 min – glenn: on best approach to drug addiction .. what happens if treat drug addicts as criminals and incarcerate
32 min – leading to more and more people addicted.. and dying of addiction.. how successful was ‘just say no’.. more dying of addiction.. but worked for prison/police/justice industry.. it is a ‘criminal’ justice system because it punished people for being hurt.. then talks of harm reduction.. some say it coddles th addict.. no it doesn’t .. given human contact.. problem is that harm reduction approach now being adopted in more/more american cities.. still exists in a context of hostility and severe judgment..
35 min – and further more.. avg physician.. shocking to say.. despite all sci evidence to addictions in general.. that brains are programmed in early childhood experiences.. so early childhood experiences lead to diff brains that are more prone to addiction.. despite the sci evidence.. that’s not eve vaguely controversial.. the avg physician to this day.. does not hear a single lecture on childhood trauma.. so gap between sci/evidence and practice is true.. not uniformly but frequently enough even in addiction treatment
gabor on childhood trauma et al
36 min – glenn: you have wide receptive spread audience across borders.. rare these days.. 1\ you speak w compassion from experiences 2\ you offer societal critique.. deprivations at root of problems.. i see book as culmination as that part of your work..
need to try a nother way.. for (blank)’s sake
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be you. 