deeyah & simon on extreme listening

50 min podcast interview of deeyah via simon – on extreme listening

Extreme listening is what Muslim filmmaker @Deeyah_Khan did when spending time with white supremacists for her documentary. The results were profound and we talked about how we could use it in our lives. This is…A Bit of Optimism.
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3 min – wondered why i was drawn to the darkness.. but realized.. i’m looking for the light in it.. 

4 min – s: this skill you have of listening.. feeling heard.. their narrative started to unravel.. watch them struggle w wanting to hate you.. was an amazing thing to watch.. so relevant to what we’re going thru today.. failure of both sides is failure to listen

willard heard law

begs a mech to undo our hierarchical listening 

7 min – if we don’t find a way to make this work.. the alt is violence

i think violence is easy.. really being there w someone else is difficult

9 min – s: both sides accuse other of being judgmental

perhaps we can have tech w/o judgment ie: tech as it could be

12 min – i wanted to get to the why – we already knew what they say/do

13 min – can i find a way to understand them as human beings behind the rhetoric..t

14 min – i wasn’t going to let them push my buttons even if they did.. i was just going to wait/listen till their humanity came out

17 min – s: i think the hard thing for people w your style is it’s unpredictable in time.. going to happen.. we just don’t know how long..t

we have means to hasten that now.. imagine that.. a means to undo our hierarchical listening 

20 min – s: you also realized the stuck ness.. (that he couldn’t just pull out of established relationships).. time tables fail to appreciate the difficulty of this

22 min – imagine having no support outside.. and having to do the time.. after having hurt people

23 min – s: this is the irony of belonging

24 min – this word belonging kept coming back.. actually not driven by hate.. but driven by love.. didn’t have love.. rejected by everybody.. then find this group that says.. you’re one of us..

26 min – these groups spend countless hours recruiting.. how much time do we spend w a kid that’s hurting.. sense of loyalty/love is unbreakable.. end up doing horrible things for the love of this person (who recruited them)

27 min – if all of our experiences are pretty much the same.. what makes me pick up a camera and you a gun.. diff is .. who showed up when you were most broken

28 min – s: who recruited you.. but.. it’s a machine.. not one person caring about them..

29 min – on recruiters being the evil one.. they pick the most vulnerable

but can’t we listen to them to..? don’t they have a story as well..?

31 min – i left both films optimistic.. about human needs and fulfilling those.. that we can do something about

esp if we focus on needs basic to all humans ie: maté basic needs

32 min – when do these kids matter..? when they do something horrible/violent

s: 2 things upsetting 1\ difficulty of patience that i have to wait 2\ recruiters actually giving them something to belong to.. until we can offer an alt place.. where they belong/safe.. we’re going to lose

their sincerity in really wanting to change the world..

34 min – we’re so good at articulating what we’re against.. not so good at what we’re for.. and what we are offering as alt.. how do we plug into that.. way for kids to contribute.. fill fulfilled.. they are only about what they are for.. (not what they’re against)..t

ie: cure ios city

s: irony.. they are what they are for.. we who think we’re good.. are what we are against..t

spinning our wheels on defense et al

35 min – they are doing it to preserve way of life.. they are for that.. doing something about struggling muslims

36 min – impression i get from blm.. is that it’s about everybody.. coming together for something better.. for all of us.. to me that is something that is for..

s: words like anti or against enforce the division

38 min – academics over complicate it.. big abstract words.. makes you feel hopeless.. takes power/solution away..

s: how to have a productive convo when one wants to win and one wants to be right.. one scores points and one makes points.. zero is accomplished

39 min – s: how do i listen to someone i have a visceral reaction to

40 min – first figure out why you wanted to have that encounter.. for me.. wanted to understand what makes them tick

if wanting to understand.. i sit still.. wait for them to empty.. it takes time..

41 min – you have to know why you’re doing it.. and use that to keep yourself in check.. ie: if i was to lash out.. i would have given them what they wanted..

if we don’t listen.. we don’t understand what makes them tick..

42 min – everybody wants to be heard.. i can’t be put in a corner where i would dehumanize them

willard heard law

44 min – s: anger is indication of the beginning not the end

you can defuse the anger fairly easily.. but you have to want to

you learn about yourself.. about what kind of human being i want to be

46 min – s: (what i learned from listening to you) it’s fine and good to listen w empathy.. but you have to offer another place to go..t.. belonging is not enough .. have to have a place to go..

costello screen\service law

what do you replace that gap with.. what are you for.. what takes that place.. love is the only thing

47 min – s: trying to find out what they love.. love is only thing that makes you sacrifice

s: sincere desire to understand the thing they love.. now a convo can start.. can be no convo until there is extreme listening first..t

imagine if we just focused on listening to the itch-in-8b-souls.. first thing.. everyday.. and used that data to augment our interconnectedness.. we might just get to a more antifragile, healthy, thriving world.. the ecosystem we keep longing for..

what the world needs most is the energy of 8b alive people

49 min – this word love you keep saying.. i always say that.. it’s not nice/mushy.. it’s very practical.. and at the center of everything.. i know this.. use to feel it.. but now i know this.. the second they feel that from you.. they are willing to sit there

50 min – w/o love truly there is nothing

51 min – we cannot give up on each other.. i refuse to do that.. doesn’t matter how far gone.. how ugly.. i will try to stick it out for as long as i can bear it.. that’s what i would need..