nika and david on wealth
20 min video – mar 19 2019 – part 1
From childhood, we read stories about rich and poor, about kings and commoners, about enormous treasures and adventurers.
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/nikadubrovsky/status/1433591687230771200
nika – intro: book .. what is wealth.. cool to work w kids.. from diff cultural backgrounds.. and of course they know a lot about what is poverty/wealth.. more than probably than people who are right now here.. ie: describing richness w/o talking about money.. when talking about wealth.. talked about family .. when talking about poverty would be talking about money in detailed measurements.. t
4 min – frank: 2 kinds of wealth – 1\ things we need from nature.. use/quality.. 2\ value/money..amount.. opposites.. we can exchange one into the other.. what we do when we sell/buy.. separation is why they can/must be exchanged.. then wealth in exchange.. need both sides and whole society based on exchange..
7 min – frank: wealth must be produced: 1\ production 2\ workers/income.. real wealth is compatibility.. w/o production wealth doesn’t exist.. former societies not as wealthy/productive
can see david giggling – love it/him
11 min – elona: am not an expert on wealth but on resources and climate change.. my perception is the worth is natural resources.. also a competition because both private and common pool resources have req’s.. ie: super rich 1/2 % of most wealthy.. same emissions as 50% of poorest.. in end it’s about the uneven quantities and events affecting the poorest.. when ask children .. want to grow up and have children.. as get older starts becoming about money
18 min – david: on previous generations being poorer.. not entirely clear that that’s true.. that’s assuming there is some kind of objective measure of wealth..t.. diff societies have completely diff ideas of what wealth should be.. ie: french missionaries often (1600s) had heated arguments w indigenous americans about who was richer.. it really annoyed the missionaries.. indigenous people telling them ‘you guys are really poor compared to us because you’re just miserable all the time.. constantly feel you don’t have enough so you feel poor.. and we don’t feel poor .. everything we want we’ve got a lot of ‘.. t.. this made a lot of the french people really angry.. thinking these people are entirely missing out on the point of life.. but they made a reasonable case..t.. they said.. first of all you have no freedom.. you guys live all the time in fear of your commanders.. whereas we don’t care.. if our chief tells us to do something we don’t want to do we just laugh at them.. and second of all.. you have no security.. you’re all terrified you’re going to end up a beggar on the street if you don’t play your cards right.. here that never happens.. we take care of each other.. and you’re constantly competing w each other.. so you’re nervous and upset all the time.. so we feel rich.. because we get to live like only rich people in your society live.. we get to relax.. and just take what we want.. because the things that we actually think are important we have enough of.. a very interesting theme.. these convos had a lot of effect.. the people who heard them took them very seriously..
graeber values law et al
we need to let go of any form of m\a\p..
we keep organizing ourselves around ‘needs’.. (food, water, shelter) .. but not the deeper/essential needs .. so we keep thinking we need more of those other ‘needs’ than we really do..
let’s try a nother way
holmgren indigenous law et al
video cut mid david..
20 min video – part 2
What is wealth? Part 2 also about “Dawn of everything”
with @davidgraeber, @ilonamotto and Frank Engster https://t.co/eA1H5HGuuq via @YouTube
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/nikadubrovsky/status/1433592592390832131
notes/quotes from part 2 – picking up mid david from above – quotes are his unless otherwise noted
working right now w archeologist about the origins of social ineq.. kind of a silly question.. if look at human history it’s much more common for people to move back and forth.. hierarchy in one time of year.. all one others.. so people were just more flexible.. so really the question is not where did certain differentiations of power come from.. but how did we get stuck in one mode and just can’t get out..
but in terms of objective measures.. there’s a million diff ways of doing that too.. which always strikes me as bizarre.. that we choose to measure something and not others.. but there seems to be a lot more objective starvation now than in paleolithic.. i’m totally for tech progress.. a lot of things way better now.. but i also think people discount.. think you’re idealizing.. when you make these points.. on one hand some in indigenous had hierarchy/slaves.. others were egalitarian.. they were all diff.. but nonetheless there are downsides.. much more likely to die in a war then than now
3 min – however.. it strikes me that the fact that people when given the choice.. regularly chose those societies over the one’s closest to ours.. is significant..
in terms of right now there’s a great debate going on as to whether there’s an increase/decrease in poverty.. which is very interesting.. because it was assumed that in 80-90s that things were getting worse.. and suddenly last 10-15 yrs.. world bank and un putting out all this: no everything’s getting better.. poverty is going way down.. and they’re saying it’s because of capitalism
4 min – if you look at those figures.. they’re very deceptive.. 1\ about 90% of the improvement has been in one country.. china.. which is a country who wasn’t doing what they were supposed to in terms of rising above.. if you look at other countries.. depends on how measure it.. and they’ve been sort of jiggering the numbers.. so by some interp’s things actually are getting worse and by some they’re getting better.. it’s a mixed bag
5 min – but one thing that’s very very clear is that the level of security has gone way down.. so the physical measures haven’t changed that much .. but the level of stress and people just totally freaking out about their future that we have in the world today is way more than we’ve had.. and that’s something that’s very hard to measure.. but again.. should be .. when we think about being wealthy.. usually what we think about is being able to relax a little.. so .. if that’s the measure of wealth.. it’s definitely going down.. the fear of poverty i think has gone up.. t
6 min – yeah.. one of the great improvements is infant mortality.. and women who die in childbirth.. but.. misnomer.. was in averaging in all those who died at 2 so avg mortality was 30.. when actually made it to 30 .. made it to 80.. so not really living longer
but what about childbirth rates in us (ie: https://everymothercounts.org/our-story/the-issue/)
7 min – the vast majority of health improvements we’ve seen.. haven’t actually been due to improvements in med/treatment so much as hygiene.. about 90% of improvement o f health outcomes over last 150 yrs have been hygiene
i made an argument in bs jobs.. more useless job more pay you get.. and dr’s always seemed like big exception to that.. but if it’s true that 90% of improvement of health is due to hygiene.. i guess the guys cleaning the hospital are actually more responsible.. t
all laughing.. but huge.. we’re so messed up with what health is
10 min – q: where do you think abundance comes from.. and wondering if .. to think about entropy rather than energy.. in the sense that most of the things that are thought about (in regard to wealth) are in the material defined as a certain amount of resources/energy.. but then the idea of entropy gets missed.. and the idea that we live in a scarce world.. there’s a certain amount of finite resources.. and if there’s even more people then what you gonna do with finite resources.. but that doesn’t take into consideration entropy.. as a (bar?) in social relations
yeah that.. huge.. that..
carhart-harris entropy law et al.. and enough ness
11 min – david: so entropy in social relations i see.. ok.. it seems the planet earth in general is a pretty contrary topic.. you know it’s going to blow up someday.. the sun’s going to explode.. but in the mean time we’ve got this huge battery in it funneling energy into the system.. so i’ve never been quite sure how much entropy really does abide.. by closed systems of specific types
ilona: i think if you manage it well there is enough for everyone.. even for more people.. the problem is distribution.. t.. just distribution.. rich don’t see it as an obligation .. so i experiment on people w common pool resources.. those who take responsibility (share more).. others – richest – take too much.. need to reach more awareness of this topic
yeah.. i don’t think that’s the deeper problem.. we need to know what enough is first.. we need to know what our basic needs are first.. otherwise.. spinning/wasting our wheels..
14 min – nika: on being trained in school to take all the resources and control others and compete.. to my knowledge there is no ed system .. unless very marginal and small.. that is providing kids with (?)
15 min – ilona: this notion that property is a notion of obligation.. written in swedish constitution.. so there is something we can hold onto.. we’re not aware of this
david: not to mention ed itself is the exact opposite of that.. so you’re educating people.. thru the act of educating people is a kind of nurture and care to have people grow.. so you’re educating people to not behave like that.. it’s a total contradiction to what education itself is.. because if people were really like that.. they wouldn’t be educating people at all .. t
19 min – q: is there really a big diff of wealth and how people experience it depending on where they live.. not just poor dying younger.. ie: ukraine living in poor conditions till 98.. as if they had an other form of resistance.. rural? hardship?