m of care – dec 1

second fight club – debt part 2 – q&a w michael hudson and astra taylor and nika dubrovsky and steven keen and pavlina tcherneva @ptcherneva

notes from zoom:

nika: intro

astra: noting the paradox between the words care and fighting.. this will be a loving debate.. i’m constantly facing criticism.. so i’ll share some of that (then onto her history).. to now.. and sign of times.. not student and medical debts actually being cancelled.. how can we address doubts people still have.. et al

pavlina: on david’s paradoxes.. that we must perceive things as common sense.. mythology and culture of acceptance of this flawed idea.. based on flawed idea of money et al.. that govt and public must behave like households.. so need to look at coord we have to meet our objectives.. on red herrings.. they divert our attention from the important issues

oi.. yeah this convo is that.. we need to pause.. from everything.. and re\set.. by org ing around legit needs

we’re just continuing to debate/fight/plead/protest.. our energies away.. everyday.. perpetuating tragedy of the non common

ie: graeber model law et al.. we just need to model a nother way

michael: if want a house.. need to go into debt.. want a job.. need a degree so have to go into debt.. creditors use the misfortune of society.. like covid.. to make money.. ie: now in ny .. a lot have lost jobs.. can’t pay rent/mortgage.. et al.. moratorium expires in feb.. 10s of 1000s will be evicted.. debt is not in equilib.. it grows exponentially..

astra: we’re not in debt because we live beyond our means but because we’re denied the means to live..t

huge point.. but we need to go deeper.. need to grok essential means/needs first.. and org around legit needs.. otherwise perpetuating tragedy of the non common et al..

ie: graeber stop at enough law..


astra: money not just about pay but about power.. why do we have this system still at play.. the way debt obstructs democracy

michael: wasn’t supposed to be that way.. ie: if hurt someone.. pay reparations.. the whole econ functioned on credit.. long before there was money..

pavlini: i love where michael took this convo.. in david’s book.. debt was a social relationship.. before that.. tax.. a debt.. was there to compel reproduction to resource the palace.. michael’s work is very good in illustrating that when private creditors gain such power.. then people indebted to creditors rather than palace.. so palace not able to do jubilees.. why does palace tax..? for public provisioning.. ff to present day.. function of tax today.. public doesn’t need to tax to finance projects.. tax is still to work in exchange for goods/services.. expectation of state is to provide public goods.. student debt is one of those debts that can be forgiven.. vast majority held by public sector/unis.. can cancel w/o interfering w private.. saying we can’t cancel debts is so empowering

steve: on society built on obligation to each other.. has been taken over by debt

that was never humane enough.. obligation is cancer as well

michael: have to cancel claims on society.. destabilize the destabilizer

steve: that is the idea.. get rid of power structure.. (para: but can’t do that).. so jubilee (explanation) to stimulate the econ


michael: ie: when wanted to get rid of slavery.. likewise.. don’t want to bail billionaires out

astra: asking pavlina.. on central banks being in control

pavlina: that’s what i wanted to talk about.. ie: during covid we paused the budget.. govt has all resources it needs to grease wheels.. to pause debts.. so matter of choices.. tax system doesn’t do this.. so want to eliminate extractives (then goes on with details and ‘our monetary reality’).. we are simply validating teh finactialization of the econ

oi.. yeah that.. that’s what all this is doing as well.. need to let go.. legit re\set

pavlina: it’s that we permit the fin sector to do what it does

rather.. it’s that we don’t have an alt..

we need a legit alt.. org’d around legit needs

ie: a nother way

steve: i would rather shut them up by stuffing money in their mouth than trying to decapitate them..

astra: if we abolishes taxes and debt.. won’t there be inflation? is that sustainable

michael: of course it’s sustainable.. it’s either bank or govt money.. why is one more prone to inflation than the other.. both create it.. banks actually much less inflationary.. fact that govt creates it to anybody else doesn’t mean a thing

same wrong song guys

of math and men.. any form of m\a\p.. killing us softly with that song.. oi

graeber stop at enough law et al

pavlina: purpose of tax is to transfer resources to the public sector.. clearly the tax serves this function


astra: on student debt.. and ubi et al

michael: easy answer.. thru out most of world ed is free.. throw out the fee.. should be a free public utility.. or you get there by brains

pavlina: this is a basic income.. free access to basic essentials of life: ed, soc sec, healthcare.. the idea here is to rethink what the good life is and see how we can attain it.. i think bi guarantees are essential .. but also want to think about the structural aspects.. of how we provide

again.. huge .. and deeper.. need to org around legit needs

astra: we need to make sure this public good is abundant to that no other ineq’s manifest.. you are not a loan


pavlina: to graeber again.. the concept of human econ.. everything premised on care.. if we really think deeply about human condition.. take care of each other.. vast majority of our work.. but we have commodified it.. we can’t reproduce a society if we have canabalized resources we depend on.. need a re imagining

as long as deep/free enough.. ie: sans any form of m\a\p.. otherwise spinning wheels in tragedy of the non common

astra: on eviction moratoriums.. they weren’t cancellations.. so piling up

michael: this ie came up in 3rd cent bc in sparta..

and we’re still talking about it.. oi.. we’re keeping that song alive

steve: on how to restructure.. quit letting few decide for rest.. (then went on to explain an ie he was for that included professionals deciding how money is spent)

ha.. oh my

we have to let go of any form of m\a\p

pavlina: on ways in which society orgs itself.. the community knows.. you can deploy.. do ground up support of solidarity networks.. that are already doing the kind of care work we are talking about .. but they are disconnected to fin source.. i would connect these two

michael: no one has never said.. where would we get the money for military et al

pavlina: we need to restructure to remove opps to make money

we need to restructure sans money.. ie: money as planned obsolescence ..where legit needs are met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring ..

sans any form of m\a\p

michael: on debt cycles working? wipe out debt then regains.. then wipe out again..

oi.. we’re spending all our energy fighting/debating/protesting for our rights/fairness in that old song (aka: game of monopoly) rather than trying something legit diff..

let’s let go enough to try a nother way



debt (book

fight clubs:

1st one – m of care – sept 23

2nd one – m of care – dec 1



museum of care meetings

museum of care