m of care – sept 7 23
part 1 – collapse of antiquity by michael hudson (2023) via museum of care meetings
THE ORIGINS OF MODERN DEBT POLITICS IN GREECE AND ROME – READING MICHAEL HUDSON’S “THE COLLAPSE OF ANTIQUITY” PART 1 – 07 September, 2023 19:00 (London time) [https://museum.care/events/the-origins-of-modern-debt-politics-in-greece-and-rome-reading-michael-hudson-s-the-collapse-of-antiquity-part-1/]:
In this first session we pull back the camera and look at the overall story of the book and how its lessons on debt in antiquity apply to today.
Suggested reading is the summery at the beginning of the book as well as chapter one.
notes/quotes for part 1 reading:
summary (7 pgs)
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Temples melted down this bullion and struck coins for civic authorities to hire mercenaries and build ships in war emergen- cies. This bullion was expected to be paid back upon the return to peace, making it the first formal public debt arrangement. Temple bullion also was used to finance the construction of public monuments. By the 4th century BC, however, many cities were so financially strapped that they had to rely on wealthy philanthropists or other elite to save their public property from decay
need gershenfeld something else law
Describing *wealth as addictive, Theognis of Megara and Solon, Plato and Aristotle framed the discussion of debt in the context of pleonex- ia (wealth addiction) or philarguria (love of silver) **leading to predatory and socially injurious behavior. Athenian political and moral philosophy, poetry and drama denounced wealth addiction and money-lust as leading to hubris, which was defined as aggressive greed injuring the body politic. In Plato’s Republic, Socrates proposed that only administrators without wealth or property should be appointed to govern society so that they pre- sumably would not be prone to hubristic greed and defend pro-creditor rules (Chapter 7).
*nika and david on wealth et al
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Rome’s Second Punic War against Carthage (218-201) saw military contractors engage in large-scale fraud and violently block the Senate from prosecuting them. It also became an occasion for endowing the wealthiest families with public land when the Roman state treated their ostensibly patriotic donations of jewelry and money to aid the war effort as retro- active public debts subject to repayment. After Rome defeated Carthage, they demanded reimbursement for what they had given. The only asset the treasury had available was the rich land of Campania south of Rome. The wealthiest families arranged for the Senate to assign them most of this ager publicus instead of allocating it to war veterans as had been the tradition (Chapter 13).
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The Senate lost power and became merely a ceremonial elite as army leaders gained control. *Smallholders who lost their land found their major employment option to be joining armies as mercenaries under generals promising them booty and, as veterans, settlement on new plots of land. But Rome’s Empire was basically a coda for the way in which the Republic had established its rules for credit and land tenure. **The wealthiest families plowed most of their rents and interest into more land appropriation and usury, and passed the tax burden onto local officials and small landholders. By the time Emperor Hadrian felt obliged to burn the tax records to abolish arrears in 118 AD, as Marcus Aurelius would again do in 178, ***the major beneficiaries of such debt amnesties were the rich who had managed to delay paying their taxes (Chapter 20).
*khan filling the gaps law et al
**utopia of rules backwards et al
***f & b & dm same law et al
By the 5th century AD there was no more talk of land redistribution or debt cancellation. As the Late Roman Empire became a predatory free-for-all, its End Time produced *so deep a revulsion against luxury amidst a world of poverty that martyrdom increased. By the 4th century the Christian Church was able to ban the charging of interest by members of the priesthood, and in due course by the lay population, without opposition from the wealthy (Chapter 21).
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But Christianity’s character changed as it became Rome’s state religion under Constantine. Instead of its earlier critique of economic greed as sinful, the Church accepted the Empire’s maldistribution of land and other wealth. The new official religion merely asked that the wealthy be charita- ble, and atone for personal sin by donating to the Church. Instead of the earlier meaning of the Lord’s Prayer as a call to forgive personal debts, the new sins calling for forgiveness were egotistical and, to Augustine, sexual drives especially. The financial dimension disappeared (Chapter 22)
Chapter 23 traces how Rome’s oligarchic ideology and legal traditions have shaped those of the West. Today’s protection of creditors and oppo- sition to public regulation has its roots in Rome’s oligarchy sanctifying the obligation of debtors to relinquish their land and personal liberty to credi- tors. To accept the views of Rome’s own historians criticizing these oligar- chic debt dynamics would call into question our own Western practice of following similar pro-creditor policies and free-market philosophy. This modern-day pro-creditor ideology has shaped recent economic interpreta- tions of antiquity, which show increasing sympathy with Rome’s oligarchic policies. Rome’s decline and fall is blamed mainly on its predatory Empire, not on its debt dynamics and the failure of its internal struggles to promote domestic prosperity by reforming debt bondage and restoring the citizen- ry’s means of self-support.
intro (9 pgs)
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Debt as antiquity’s major polarizing force
Throughout recorded history the most destabilizing dynamic has been the tendency of societies to polarize between a creditor oligarchy monopo- lizing land and other wealth, and an indebted clientage at the bottom. The major distinguishing feature of every civilization has been the way it has coped with debts that grow and tend to exceed the ability of many debtors to pay. If there is no intervention to restore balance by some authority acting from outside or “above” the market, economies will tend to polarize between creditors and debtors, patrons and clients.. Despite today’s intensifying debt prob- lems, recent historians have shown less concern with the role of debt in antiquity’s decline and fall than did antiquity’s own historians.
restore balance? we’ve been forever not-us
need a diff econ.. ie: oikos (the economy our souls crave).. ‘i should say: the house shelters day-dreaming, the house protects the dreamer, the house allows one to dream in peace.’ – gaston bachelard, the poetics of space
sans any form of m\a\p
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Recent classical histories tend to follow mainstream economics in fo- cusing on productive lending that creates enough gains for borrowers to repay lenders without destabilizing basic social relationships. “
any form of m\a\p destablizes/unmoors/cancerously distracts us
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Whatever dates we choose to mark *antiquity’s fatal turning points, the key reason for its decline was the way in which it handled the problem of debtors falling into dependency, and the ensuing concentration of land ownership, monetary wealth and political power in creditor oligarchies. The pro-creditor ideology of Rome’s oligarchy has survived to shape modern legal systems and economic ethics. The demand that all debts must be paid, without concern for the effects on debtors or on fiscal, eco- nomic and social stability, remains congenial to today’s financial interests and has become ingrained in modern economic thought. It is not based on the evidence of economic history but reflects today’s pro-creditor version of free-market ideology.
*deeper.. once we allowed/began/perpetuated/whatever any form of m\a\p.. so since forever..
Given this prevailing ideology, this book no doubt will be characterized as a revisionist history of antiquity. What is ironic is that I have followed what antiquity’s own historians and philosophers themselves emphasized: the conflict between creditors and debtors, won by increasingly powerful creditors at the cost of destroying the society that they managed. The kind of market that they designed and administered looked only at their short- term tactical gains, *lacking the context of long-term viability that had guided earlier kingdoms which, ironic as it may seem, were more econom- ically “democratic” than democratically elected oligarchies have proved to
again.. not deep enough.. need a nother way.. for 8b people to live.. sansany form of m\a\p
so..
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature as global detox/re\set.. so we can org around legit needs
imagine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness as nonjudgmental expo labeling)
and.. simultaneous as jumpstart/placebo/transition/detox/reset..
perhaps let’s try/code money (any form of measuring/accounting) as the planned obsolescence w/ubi as temp placebo.. where legit needs are met w/o money.. till people forget about measuring
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notes/quotes from part 1 meeting:
if asked.. p 4 from intro.. huge to me.. can’t widdle our way out.. need a legit nother way
Recent classical histories tend to follow mainstream economics in fo- cusing on productive lending that creates enough gains for borrowers to repay lenders without destabilizing basic social relationships. “
any form of m\a\p destablizes/unmoors/cancerously distracts us
meeting: c: intro.. would like to look at where michael and david’s debt converge/diverge.. theme of book.. how independent oligarchies first estab’d in ancient greek/rome.. how socisl relations have become a feature of modern societies since.. 2nd book in his trilogy.. first about middle east.. this one how moves into west.. in east kings had power to do jubilee.. common man owed money to king.. rich only owed money amongst self.. made it easy for king to forgive debt.. mostly agri debt.. so poor wouldn’t lose lands.. michael rejects notion of supremacy based on survival of fittest.. he translates that to managed econs (ie: china).. 5 cents of strife/war.. wants to get people to think diff about the ancients.. we’re built w inborn respect to greeks et al.. there was a lot of stuff that wasn’t good there.. hard to disagree w him when read book.. david quoted rudolph.. ‘rome conquered world 3 times: 1\ land 2\ religion 3\ .. david is very much on side of people org-ing for self.. debt only relevance if ie: find rich guy to support you.. then can build google etc.. romans citizens only had option of walk out to get rid of debt.. need to rid antiquity of its halo.. david ‘c always needs a crisis’.. even w/o crisis.. shouldn’t we try for something diff.. it’s a disembedded cultural practice run a muck
shambhavi: in debt david wrote about how some of these very oppressive perspectives for debt/enforcement emerged from desert areas.. modern perspectives disembodied from culture.. ‘just how free market works’.. make it seem neutral.. but has deeply embedded cutlrual imperatives.. consistent/reappearing stategy
nika: i like idea we should revisit cultural heritage.. i wonder how we can do that.. how would you dismantle the idea
c: just need to read the book.. some say.. hudson: get back to central authority.. for me that wasn’t take away of book at all.. that was my main take away.. bit of disenchantments of teh ancients which i don’t think is bad
nika: i was thinking it was great.. just wondering how to make it bigger
nika: on thinking should be proud of homeland..
me: need global detox
c: i think we can’t just trash it all.. tell what’s good et al.. bending discussion back to book.. h described transmission and central role temples played
sh in chat: “Decolonizing our thoughts is a long, demanding and transformative process, in which I believe shame can be useful, precisely because it’s a call for change.” Isabelle Stengers
c: word money came from temple.. meant as a mutual/mediating ground..
sh: authoritative way of introducing this idea of hierarchy such that over time idea of interests.. ie: i want more money than i give you back.. if corrupted can testify that logic
c: this is diff than debt reading group.. david cast his net across entire world.. showed parallels/diff in all.. at same time all practices occurred/disappeared .. h focus on europe and middle east.. criticism from people from debt group.. gives diff spin to whole idea..
nika: tell us more about china
c: h gets much more into this later in book.. but part of main argument.. what he calls the age of tyrants.. interest bearing debt.. resulted in debt revolts 7th cent bc.. led to age of tyrants.. beneficial ruler came in overcame oligarchy and managed to get econ on a track that was more beneficial to majority of people than before.. today everybody think ‘tyrant’ is back.. but them were ones that got system back on track and led it to modern democracy
oi
c: china looks like a system that’s more in course w future.. seems to rise when we descend.. lot in west disenchanted w last 30 yrs.. if just look at hard econ numbers.. most of money went to top.. makes an alt attractive.. if take up david.. for him was important to state.. not just 2 options.. says we should look beyond that.. which i think he clearly spelled out in doe
nika: only thing that could take it over is a military coup.. hudson is rearranging language and doing that is rearranging common sense
c: david: lost ability to imagine something diff..
c: desire to have more.. wealth addiction.. always leads to hubris/fall.. if let dynamics lead unchecked.. a culturally instituted practice of violence
sh: ability to imagine something diff.. i feel like everyone everyday thinks about how things came be.. i think lives today deeply change by changing/amount of attention.. somehow because of this destructured/haphazard way info exchange portals.. co opted by large corps/sm.. why i like these small groups.. good reminder that we haven’t lost ability tot imagine something diff.. but attention is so powerful and gets converted over time.. am looking forward to pirate party.. meeting some people in person.. even if a few people you can share this with.. this muscle you have.. communal muscle doesn’t disappear.. always risk it could become extinct if not sufficient numbers.. always a dream to make sur eit doesn’t do that
c: this is certainly part of what we’re trying to do here.. if you feel inspired.. we’re successful
oi
c: david in ch 5.. hard to see past thru eyes of present.. policies enrich themselves.. ‘memory tracks w power’ practices in past as safe guards.. things get sidelined.. david debt ‘ancient china .. do we read classics or do classics read us’.. david’s work really showed how this worked.. all this has been there forever and ie: d’s new eyes saying more to discuss.. maybe a cause for hope.. some of us have ability to look beyond what we see everyday
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be you. 