m of care – mar 26

museum of care meetings joining lse for david graeber‘s bullshit jobs – dg:

Reminder; Our fourth reading group on David Graeber’s scholarship will address Bullshit Jobs, chapters 1, 4, 7. 
Friday, March 26 at 12:30 pm NY, 5:30 pm London, 8:30 pm Istanbul time. Registration info is available here. @LSEsociology @LSEHumanRights 

https://t.co/gA56auUfQx

Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/ayca_cu/status/1373880345955799040

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notes/quotes from zoom meeting (47 at beginning) – ayca cubukcu hosting:

a: we read ch 1, 4, and 7

a: i was wondering how many of us were not thinking our jobs were bs jobs

nika: i never myself worked in bs jobs.. very striking for me the realization that there were bs jobs.. ie: my background.. whoever not work not eat.. very idea that job being an essential everything.. very present everywhere and still is.. so not the obvious first

gabbie – student: striking leaving a bs job and then being in lock down w all this time to think about what i want to do

a: on david analyzing personal reflections – on strands of commonality of how they knew

robin – les faculty: david says the workers will know

sid: that subjective element is essential.. you decide yourself whether you have a bs job.. like nika.. i haven’t been around many that think they have bs jobs

tj: as someone in a bs job.. interesting enough that such a high % said they did.. then of interest to see if common criteria

svetlana: on critique.. i’m also from russia.. i saw people being critical of the book.. saying maybe a good essay but not enough for whole book.. like book is too much on subject.. but when people engage w book.. it strikes chord in them.. for me .. most valuable theme.. is that people instantly recognize selves when reading this book

yeah.. we have no idea.. as whales

suchismita: on friend who is happy working many hrs.. but first in her fam to have a job.. she viewed her job as an emancipation factor.. so wondering if culture variations

again.. whales.. have no idea.. schooling the world ness

oneg: also from soviet union.. so can relate w work main sector that turns you into a real human.. so parents always pushed me toward non manual work.. i tried it.. realized it is a bs job (actually scamming people out of money).. what was interesting that david puts emphasis on subjectivity.. you know it or not.. but i looked at my co workers and they didn’t realize it.. thought they were doing a great job and contributing.. so subjectivity is important.. but needs to be some criteria.. so great that david made those categories

because we’re so intoxicated.. all of us.. earn a living et al.. graeber job\less law et al

michael reinsborough: just on this word subjectivity.. people making a decision.. what david is doing is.. let’s trust people.. do make their own decision.. when we say it’s subjective.. it’s not like we give criteria.. not like they don’t have a objective element in mind

sarah doyel (@sarahdoyel?): what intrigued me most.. david’s description of spiritual violence.. it seems to me that’s what seems to be at the core of the subjective element.. if they don’t believe they have a bs job.. can they experience the spiritual violence of a bs job?.t ie of friend who loved bs job and got a lot of meaning out of it.. so don’t think he experienced that spiritual violence..

to me.. the fact that he can’t tell.. is ie that he is experiencing spiritual violence.. ie: whalespeak et al.. like a happy seeming whale in sea world

richard: wondering what david would comment about pandemic has affected bs jobs et al.. ie: essential more important

wasil: this subjective element.. a sense of morality .. that morality of work.. that if you liked what you did for money.. it was a negative thing.. as if you weren’t allowed to enjoy it.. happy to see david also tackling that side of the argument

sandeepan:

a: what we’re raising is the problem of ideology and how david thinks about it

dimitris: on pt of power dynamics.. in all cases david describes.. people say what they could do to make jobs have meanings.. but don’t have power to change the job.. so bs ness forced on them

a: also think .. david’s ultimate is freedom.. he wants us to be free to be lazy if that’s what we want to do.. and i think that’s a very radical vision .. t

huge – david on care and freedom .. graeber care/free law.. et al.. getting to roots (radical ness) of healing

olivia: on the norms producing meaningless ness

simona: while reading book i wondered why david stressed so much on subjectivity.. and why need to justify.. i think what he’s doing in this book is addressing issue of useless jobs w/o passing thru debate of ie: unuseful production and real needs of society.. my job is not supposed to be a useless job.. ie: public health management.. i choose this job instead of teaching/academy.. i felt useful for society. .nevertheless.. it’s in the environ of bs jobs.. ie: when job – admin – must not be useful.. not supposed to do what you should.. because shouldn’t counter others.. so in this case my job becomes bs job.. and the power dynamics inside work place.. become part of a group that’s more important that what you do/produce

a: david calls it the power dynamics w/in work.. a game that doesn’t allow to consent.. except to say i quit

sevda (iran): i believe i have bs jobs.. nature of jobs was nonsense.. but because i needed job to support self i needed to do it.. made me mentally breakdown.. esp in corp environ.. they give you titles.. admin et al.. then can’t break free.. because only available jobs i could find after i graduated uni

a: david is saying that is our predicament ..today

sid luckett: subjectivity.. not just if you like it or not.. but if it contributes to society.. that for me was key.. no one else but you ..can say if you’re contributing.. ie: i’m surrounded by people who like to have any job.. don’t even ask self if contributing.. they want a job in order to feed fam.. full stop.. lots of people in world looking for that.. lastly.. i was interested in fact that david brings up ubi.. needing it in places not so much so that you can do whatever you like.. but so you can survive.. interesting to take (david’s) freedom take.. on it

richard saich: as a historian.. when did bsjobs first start happening..

a: i would frame what you’re speaking about is relationship between social value and alienation and since when did that happen

nika: i will keep fighting about my experience.. on david.. instead of automating jobs.. shipped to 3rd world.. and then employ everybody as bs or military.. but in soviet union.. the best bs jobs were ideological.. ie: teaching communism.. so looks like 2 diff systems..

vassily: i have this weird feeling that i haven’t read same book as you guys.. maybe my understanding of what he said are not correct.. ie: bs jobs you don’t want to do yourself.. ie: dirty job/work.. and graeber is talking of something diff.. jobs that don’t make any diff at all.. if they disappear nothing happens.. this is new.. something anthros haven’t tackled at all

a: yeah.. david’s diff between shit jobs and bs jobs

dimitris: on large orgs.. vs small.. and how bsjobs could come into being as org technique

michael r: on new manager showing up and needing bunch of people to show their job is important.. paper work .. B.. et al.. adam smith says.. capitalism creates productivity.. but today.. not producing anything .. so bs jobs enabling someone to feel important..

simona: 2 main pts: 1\ managerie of privilege.. what happens when not any more about production.. 2\ conception of time.. this is something we could use if want to campaign on bs jobs.. what you do w time.. and that it must be filled w activity

vassily in chat: David Graeber was asked if he had a bullshit job on French radio. His answer: ‘Clearly people are interested in what I have to say otherwise I wouldn’t be invited.’ https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-grande-table-2eme-partie/les-jobs-a-la-con-sont-partout-et-cest-a-ca-quon-les-reconnait

vikram gahlot: the whole subjectivity.. we could go around in circles forever.. no one can really go to another and say.. this is a bs job ie: typical wedding procession.. 50 people carrying lights on head.. people here never question that if left or right.. so.. how does power imbalance come into picture.. how does situation arise that people are in this (bs job) and keep at it.. so back to richard’s question.. can we go back far enough.. to no bs jobs.. then gives ie of farmers et al.. but.. still imbalance.. ie: land ownership; and violence.. and that was probably first divide.. (violence).. ie: to me started w monopolies.. whether natural or army .. income ineq .. artificially created monopolies.. rent seekers.. et al

hari present in society law.. hari rat park law

a: that always brings me back to the spiritual violence

whales

yuki whitley: in us.. on land architect and animation.. usually creative people.. what has happened.. large firms have layers.. people at bottom doing work.. tend to see now a lot of openings for middle management.. because a lot of people there see the bad.. and leave.. to do work.. ie: go write in cabin.. but work not socially valuable till after they’re dead

a: a few more.. then i would feel uncomfortable if we didn’t discuss vision of another world.. t

ie: cure ios city.. imagine if we

george: diff between dirty and bs jobs.. maybe not so far from each others.. ie: managers trying to escape dirty then find self in bs.. by trying to escape.. we end up doing bs

oneg: wanted to combine ideas of subjectivity and increase in bs jobs.. he explained in book.. ie: corp feudalism.. but i also think there’s a generational bit.. have a disillusion w work market.. ie: parents saying quit whining and just go work.. then get there and see bs.. this comes to whole spiritual violence.. between what we expected and what we realize.. not doing my parent’s dream.. i think that’s a reason more people notice bs jobs.. i hope future generations won’t have that starting point.. of us lying to selves.. they’ll already realize it’s bs and something needs to change..t

great plug/resonation for/with a4kids mentality/purpose

robin: i think care should be the measure.. social bonds w other people

a: and i think david is right.. think about what’s not quantifiable.. and care is that such a thing

tj: on how to fix the system.. advice organizers have.. ie: build orgs that chip away at the system.. so.. help raise consciousness.. w little nudges et al

a: next month i propose we discus u of rules

utopia of rules

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museum of care meetings

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