graham on debt ch 5
117. Graeber’s Debt Chapter 5, The Moral Ground of Economic Relations – 2024 – 50 min podcast
previously graham on graeber’s debt – everyday anarchism
via museum of care fb share – graham culbertson doing (year long?) podcast reading of david graeber‘s debt (book) [https://www.everydayanarchism.com/117-graebers-debt-chapter-5-the-moral-ground-of-economic-relations/]
notes/quotes from podcast:
11 min – critique from simona.. pt of book doe was to dispute idea that previous utopia.. what i realized.. graeber against idea of origins.. but clear that graeber thinks something went very wrong with history 5000 yrs ago and he wants to correct it..
13 min – his stories start to sound like stories he’s against.. simona pointed me to tabuchu work writing about fragments..
16 min – graeber absolutely did not believe in this hunter gatherer utopia
yeah.. since forever in sea world
17 min – but graeber says.. things seem to have gotten worse over last 5000 yrs.. so looking for manifestations of human conditions everywhere.. also looking for it in the everyday.. which is emphasis of this podcast
18 min – doe: no garden of eden.. no noble savages.. no utopia before history.. but do live in f-d up society and when people get alts.. they prefer those alts.. david is looking for this.. we do this all the time.. looking for alts that are better in other places.. so from email w simona.. even though it looks like it.. not a looking for some previous utopia
23 min – basis of sociality: communism.. mother’s love great ie of it.. just all stronger/weaker forms of it.. he give 3 points
24 min – 1\ ‘not dealing with reciprocity.. people would but not necessarily should do same for you’.. not trading/expecting .. just always going to help as long as there are people.. always giving/receiving and never keeping accounts
25 min – 2\ ‘law of hospitality’.. important to know when you’ve crossed that line into hostility.. need to know who’s an enemy and who is not.. better make sure people who are feeding you and you are feeding aren’t enemies.. so share w/everyone except people who are out to get you..
oi.. none of us are free ness.. hospitality ness et al
27 min – 3\ if want exchange/competition/elections et al.. have to have baseline communism.. all only work with in coop nature of communism
oi.. graeber exchange law
28 min – g: ‘once morality rather than property management’.. ie: merchants reduce prices for the needy and they are supposed to be least communistic
45 min – what graeber is saying.. hard to shift from reciprocity to communism.. recip slides into hierarchy..
reciprocity as cancerous distraction
47 min – g: ‘debt requires people who see each other as equals.. but not in a state of equality.. looking for ways to make matters straight.. debtor is always a sort of criminal.. ‘
49 min – to org society w/o debt.. would need communism and/or hierarchy.. if everyone equal and don’t what to come to primordial chaos/anarchy.. we have to find a way to bind people into mutually beneficial exchange.. if imagine everything based on reciprocity.. absolutely have to use debt to hold together.. but only if we accept what economists explain how world is.. we believe so deeply in individuals and exchanges.. even though reduce people to classes..
i don’ think so.. rather..
1\ undisturbed ecosystem (common\ing) can happen
2\ if we create a way to ground the chaos of 8b legit free people
who’s together in a space is huge.. we need a nother way to do that.. so that ie: reciprocity/exchange/et al.. are irrelevant s
53 min – feudal benevolence can look so radical.. at least idea in hierarchy that some are to give/get something.. hierarchy becomes a little bit of form of communism.. but would have to work constantly to make sure balance out.. economists tell us going to ruin balance if we try to balance out.. first few ch’s demolish that game.. so ways ..
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be you. 