radical econ (d&c)

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above deck referring to this convo:

The New Edge of Radical Economics

David Graeber and Charles Eisenstein, mc’d by Daniel Pinchbeck (2012, 1:34:27) at ny uni..

what is money?

C: magic

8 min – D: politics has to misrepresent what it’s doing.. ie: you can’t reveal the magic of money….most economists have no handle on what money is….agreement, magic, promise

15 mi n- what’s a path beyond this impasse?

17 min – C: flow of gifts.. will take some type of collapse/crisis to realize normal isn’t going to come back in order of us to implement this… i think the transition could be based on debt… debt forgiveness of some sort..

debt – (more via David‘s debt last 5000 yrs et al)

19 min – manage crisis with bail out – the actual debtors – and not financial institutions.. with a negative debt..  ie: purchase all student loans.. you don’t owe it to bank, but to federal reserve.. they could forgive it or reduce interest rater to zero. financial system based on neg interest

student debt

21 min – all debt is gone but so is gma’s savings… so have to have system in place

21 min – D: basically they have been printing money and give it to banks… and they basically do that at neg interest… they know there’s a big problem and radical solutions are in need… and it seems that debt cancellation is going to happen in some form or another.. real battle is what happens after that..

25 min – morality of debt and of work.. and that fact that rich people clearly don’t..

27 min – one thing occupy is starting to do – a debt movement.. because the after the debt forgiveness.. the what’s next it huge.. and those in charge want as little change as possible

28 min – the most defective weapon of socialization.. precarity – great at demobilizing people – has come back to bite the ruling class…

  1. Precarity is a condition of existence without predictability or security, affecting material and/or psychological welfare. Specifically, it is applied to the condition of intermittent or underemployment and the resultant precarious existence. The social class defined by this condition has been termed the precariat.

32 min – Daniel: interested in positive transition, ie: gift ness and couch surfing… rather than neg focus, ie: debt. i see system has become so rusted/crusted… that is forcing a new social being that is cooperative rather than competitive..

34 min – C: occupy as a seed of what could happen. in addiction to debt strike.. flip side.. sharing movement – which is already happening today… hastens demise of the money system.. these apolitical sharing movements have a political effect.. and makes change less scary. occupy not just a protest.. but a pioneering movement..  D: it inspired a lot of people to give their gift

38 min – C: most positive thing.. that everyone was just contributing and not expecting anything.. they say they found home/belonging


39 min – D: seattle was festival; occupy was camp. act against the power by showing what something else could be like. ie: 1000s of people in a room making decision w/o committee et al. center of occupy, free love, library.. implied alternative models.

58 min – D: when you’re really good at something you don’t have to talk about it – you just do it.. ie: consensus in madagascar – they’d been learning it from an early age, just becomes part of everyday life. we think of ourselves of living in democratic society… but when’s the last time we did that..

also talked about madagascar – success with no polic\ing

1:00 – q: all many created by debt, long term – all money is debt free, short term – rather than jubilee, forgiveness.. a min gift/income ie: 20000 a year

forgiveness/jubilee..negative interest, gift ness (more via Charles‘s sacred economy)

1:01 – C: yes. creating money interest free. you have to figure out how much money to create. that’s why i advocate (continue the system we have) with a neg lower bound. i like a system that can be self-regulating without govt having to decide how much to create. neg debt reverses short term thinking. the 2nd thing: basic income.. i think is good whether or not we have debt forgiveness.

basic income

and/or money less

1:05 – Daniel: it’s going to be absolutely unfair to everyone if the eco system tanks.. so we’ve got to have another way..

1:06 – C: on understanding of work.. and our innate desire to contribute..

1:07 – D: best evidence for that – look at prisons… work is a reward.. because no one wants to do nothing..

the work ethic

earn a living

making up money

interesting too – for those who compare school to prison.. this is a difference.. in school – h-work is (has been) often used as punishment

1:09 – D: on moral arguments.. odius, we can’t use that word.. doesn’t really work on people.. thinking that since you are already in debt – which is bad – can’t be immoral.. ie: mafia capitalism.. are you morally obliged to pay your debts to the mafia… also point out – these guys never pay their own debts. if you are a professor – they never pretend they forgot to pay you – like writers, artists, et al.. that’s why agents exist. so there are large sections where the obligation to pay doesn’t exist at all. so pointing that out.

1:15 – ego within (anywhere) occupy camps

graeber model law:

1:19 – D: you’ll never ever be able to convince a person through logical argument or even brilliant rhetoric that a free and just society is possible. you can show them. you can start doing it. all of a sudden, when people’s horizons change.. conversations will change.

a nother way

1:20 – D: it really has to do with your sense of horizons and possibilities.. and the only way you can do that is to do something that nobody thought was possible..

1:24 – C: how to translate gift culture to the masses… so rather than investment… giving it away..

1:30 – D: money as a way to show you can’t pay the debt… ie: no way can i presume the equivalent of your daughter.. but here is this.


so like..

minimum: debts cleared, basic income, neg interest

middle ground: all the above: debts cleared, basic income, neg interest, are optional, as is gift culture, most of the below, ie: gift culture includes elements of obligation, barter ness

ideal: game over. new game: no money, gift culture, one ness (the fact that you got to do the thing you can’t not do – is your compensation/satisfaction)


money ness

money less







so if we must.. a nother way (ch 2 small print) – and once you talk to self for 3 min – by 9am.. you get 100 (or whatever #) tokens (or whatever name) for the day – onto your device. they can’t be saved.. so like neg interest… but perhaps also – can’t be given away.. so that we don’t end up begging each other for tokens. token # has to be large enough to be enough. and then every thing (activity or object) is/costs one token. like amanda’s – pay per thing.

most important is that everyday starts over.

this is just a placebo – till we realize we don’t need money or tokens or whatever…


David in amsterdam uni mar 2015-

54 min – on dire consequences when robots steal our jobs.. if there’s ever a sign that a society is designed stupidly – is that the prospect of manual labor being eliminated is a problem. if we don’t know what to do with freedom and liberty.. that’s pretty messed up.


end of meaningless work april 2015:



numbers 22:7

But they need not account for the money entrusted to them, because they are honest in their dealings.”

if we want money to not cancerize us/humanity.. we can’t account for it.. otherwise that cancerizes our trust in each other..

and.. if we don’t account for money.. why use it..?