m of care – apr 20
DEBT: THE FIRST 5,000 YEARS BY DAVID GRAEBER – READING GROUP PART 13
debt (book) – david graeber – part 13 – ch 12
notes/quotes from meeting:
nika: this was my time to get to know david.. he kept sending me his book.. so a life changing experience in many way for me
steven: last ch.. david sets up where we might be headed.. 1971 watershed moment nixon goes off bouillon system.. so now can via credit system.. can implement debt jubilee.. p 364.. credit money is govt that can print as much money as they want.. ‘reason why wizard has a such a strange capacity to create money out of nothing.. behind him is a man w a gun’ not the govt that prints money but the fed reserve.. which is run by private bankers.. so govt can abolish debt but in order for fed reserve to abolition debt.. must first abolish men w guns.. david talk in 2014 – man w guns .. police officers B’s w guns.. belief in social chaos is a myth.. because this social gun has no trigger.. it’s appearance of machinery of violence.. in doe he says all B’s w guns.. in times of milleneian/rev transformation.. when given orders to turn guns against population.. majority of people just decide to go home.. so chaos is a myth is what he’s saying ‘yes B’s w guns but not so many that we don’t have them outnumbered’ two david’s in doe ‘# of people it takes to drop bomb.. people don’t show up and project is abandoned’
steven: under credit regimes.. graber argues less violence.. because credit is extension of a promise.. whereas in bouillon.. because it’s measurable.. person can be killed if wrong amount .. confluence of math and violence less absolute in credit regime.. more imaginary.. whereas a piece of gold tangible/material..
christian: mid class scared of debt jubilee.. if get rid of debt.. lose savings.. 401k et al.. we can’t imagine something else anymore ‘we should try to get back to point where we can imagine to be actors in history w influence of how things are going down’
steven greenspan: as david said.. not that things have gotten better.. (since credit system via nixon et al).. violence is worse.. almost like a hyper bouillon system.. we’re in a system where credit is used to mimic the bouillon system
steven: credit card industry has made alliance w govt to allow for usurious interest rates.. no longer any limit.. that’s where the free floating of the dollar is.. so you’re right.. not in a .. as in doe.. combo of all the B’s.. all forms of violence.. and all in the fed govt
mark in chat: [I couldn’t agree more with Steven and Steve. It’s a perversion of a credit system. With impersonal relations = no relations.]
michael: if credit.. got to know person long enough to pay them back.. the world you build when you exchange something
graeber exchange law.. marsh exchange law et al
peter kurze: it’s never mattered whether gold was there or not
steven in chat: [book suggestion – Stephen marglin, raising keynes] – that keynes did work out beautiful system.. but math didn’t exist at time.. so marglin argues that today monetary policies keynes didn’t have data sets and power of computation available.. so saying keynes model does hold weight today
nika: interesting for me.. david writing this ch.. w question.. what happens next.. and what we see now.. is next unfolding in front of us.. everyday new countries saying going to trade oil in local currency.. totally unimaginable.. basically a coup.. taken as given.. am i right? are we watching collapse of empire right now? my question.. what happens if nobody will give money anymore.. what happens with these 800 military bases.. i don’t think anybody is going to go home.. i know in soviet union army went home.. because they believed in the american dreams.. they thought they would live happily ever after in capitalism.. ie: what if use all this money producing vacuum cleaners rather than weapons.. what do you guys think is happening now.. because it’s happening really quick.. we are watching ch 12 in the news.. also wanted to ask about uk version of lucas plan .. my question.. from 72 to now.. 50 yrs.. happening this last 2 week.. what will happen in world if most of pop stop using us dollars as currency.. how will it effect our lives..
michael: ability of someone to use violence is ability to hold structure in place.. whether credit structure or not.. still quite hierarchical society.. a collapse in an endless militarism.. is that what we’re looking at?.. the things we make should care about people.. so opposition to militarism
peter kurze: responding to nika.. standard to grow econ pie.. would make life better for everyone.. so on bs jobs.. and ecologically not sustainable to keep growing flaws of c tied to infinite growth.. seems to me not just a matter of defeating militarism.. but the whole mindset of modern life.. if we don’t reduce consumption.. not going to have a planet to live on
bs jobs from birth et al
yeah that peter.. has to be more holistic/systemic than just military ness.. to me.. any form of m\a\p
christian: on looking for attractiveness on other side.. a lot of women in india are pro neo lib because can get out of house.. so if want change need to know attractiveness of other side.. also been thinking about the closeness of math and war.. because both math and violence make the world simple.. can cut thru a bunch of stuff.. there’s a moment where this simple ness is attractive.. t
graeber violence/quantification law
christian: then into what nika said.. i’ve also been watching this.. i think a lot of people want to see the us go.. tired of it.. what america was so good at at time.. soft power time.. music/movies.. a lot of that has gone away.. also .. when us joined world econ 56% of world us.. so goes boom.. enormous amount of power.. since then seen decline in american power.. still most powerful country.. so don’t under estimate the empire.. smart/ruthless people running it.. can pull selves out of ditch if they want.. so.. are we watching end of empire.. we should be careful of wishful thinking.. also david wrote ‘end of last regime was series of catastrophes.. after fin crisis all saw it’s not working.. there were limited resets in system.. and post 2008 there was none.. ‘.. and see same now w covid et al.. so from pov of extremely important/rare events.. taleb’s black swan.. unpredictable extremely random events.. pressure keeps building if you refuse .. so be careful of wishful thinking
black swan et al .. taleb
barbara gabriella renzi: for me.. shows violence has many faces.. and problem of lack of human relationships.. violence become something w/o a face.. and fear that is always there.. these two elements important.. w/o human relationships we can be very very mean.. and we are not well as human beings.. so mental health connected to this.. to me that’s a very big point..
steve greenspan: to continue from barbara.. part of next steps have to be restoring mutual aid.. in violence/econ systems there’s a break down of mutual aid.. wondering if we can talk about ways in which mutual aid can be fostered.. esp true in light of what peter said.. not just military and econ.. health.. climate.. food&water.. so number of .. perfect storm .. for breakdown of all the systems.. david’s essay on kropotkins mutual aid.. system of small communities re contextualize human life.. t
nika: i think that’s what braintrust is about.. and then trying to connect to other places around world doing same.. not just mutual aid w neighbors.. but this autonomous community should be everywhere.. question is .. how to make it work.. so it’s like.. need another planet.. don’t know where to fly next
need 1st/most: means to undo our hierarchical listening to self/others/nature so we can org around legit needs
magine if we listened to the itch-in-8b-souls 1st thing everyday & used that data to connect us (tech as it could be.. ai as augmenting interconnectedness)
nika: explaining braintrust https://davidgraeber.org/projects/brain-trust/.. david was trying to create a positive program to make positive change via people not govt.. so he gathered lots of diff kinds of people.. all come together and propose what to do for every human in ed, construction, banking, et al.. to survive.. bunch of smart people come up w solution.. braintrust in dgi little diff.. covers 2 major cases.. 1\ climate change already happened can’t prevent it 2\ govt not going to help us.. so what to do after know those 2 things.. what can we do right now and here.. not in future.. we as urban poor.. not as billionaires that can go to new zealand.. or bunch of hippies w commune who have means to learn agri et al.. we started in sept.. and starting w lectures.. each lecture practical.. people who can give real description of what can be implemented now.. start w adrian bowyer.. prof at bath uni.. 3d printers.. et al.. so brainstrust will follow same route like davids.. go thru each part of human society.. production, ed, health, med.. and try to create enough projects around that.. ie: lot of talk in uk.. 100s of local communities sharing diff way of living.. communicating their mutual aid.. that’s what happened w zapistitas and rojava et al.. question is.. when collapse will come.. some part of earth will be more prep’d than another.. right wing trying to convince: pension plan, weapons.. but this is a bad plan.. either collective way of confronting or we die
steve: last session.. invite people .. proposals of future reading groups.. whoever shows up is the museum of care.. not just a few of us.. on putting together all the great work that is out there.. about collab ing and make as many connections as we can.. so if books.. or .. and anyone is welcome to create own room.. we all know other world’s are possible..