charles & alnoor on oppression
via charles fb page
Charles’ conversation with Alnoor Ladha is now available on A New & Ancient Story podcast. Alnoor Ladha’s work focuses on the intersection of political organizing, systems thinking and narrative work. He was the co-founder and Executive Director of The Rules (TR), a global network of activists, organizers, designers, coders, researchers, writers and others focused on changing the rules that create inequality, poverty and climate change.
70 min podcast:
3 min – a: how do we talk about major issues.. when in midst of covid/racial-justice
4 min – c: both issues have something in common.. what is left out.. we tend to focus on narrow aspects.. people can be so passionate about these issues.. and not even bat an eye of horrors unfolding in ie: drc; starvation; people in amazon; .. what’s getting left out from that way that we see the world.. left out from our metrics.. our value system.. ie: in social justice.. the effects of neolib econ
? – deeper man
8 min – c: i would like to dedicate our convo to bringing other beings back into the convo..t
not about bringing people into a convo.. about listen deeper to 8b people.. everyday
what we need is a means to undo our hierarchical listening
9 min – a: there’s a bigger discussion to be had about the role of capitalism.. seems so taboo
spinning our wheels.. listen deeper
10 min – c: how come some things are always on the back burner.. things of the day.. not that disruptive to capitalism.. ie: covid/racial-justice.. billionaires are doing just fine
11 min – c: true what you’re saying ..all oppression is same.. so what i just said isn’t the complete picture
12 min – c: problem isn’t that it’s a fiat system.. but one based on ie: debt
14 min – c: let’s change the nature of capital.. so it changes w us.. not this object/property anymore.. this system isn’t working for anybody – allows people to go there w/o calling it anti capitalism
16 min – a: on wanting to know the defn of that ism.. not our obligation to explain what the new system is going to be.. because then getting into same cycle of creating a new institution that is going to fail
17 min – c: on trusting the smartest people.. for the plan/design.. usually they end up fighting.. only necessary when you don’t think there is a design/future already existing beyond us .. we don’t have to create.. could be guided toward it.. listening for every step
18 min – a: what i love about the notion post capitalism.. is it’s not an ism.. not ideology.. but informed by values.. interdependence w life.. distributed ness.. from domination to dialogue.. mechanistic rationalism to animistic view.. world as something more than dead matter
19 min – c: if we don’t go to that level.. it’s just more about more cleverly deploying the resources out there.. to max some number.. we’re really good at that.. that is not a deep enough revolution.. it’s not something this culture really knows how to do.. people who know how to do it are not in the halls of power.. we have to see those cultures that do that as precious treasures.. exist in reference to and as part of land
21 min – a: so part of desire to extract.. is it a hate for culture
c: i think it comes from a loss/hunger.. for those connections.. that feeling of being at home in the world..
23 min – c: we are not separate units of conscious.. we are relational beings.. so when cut off.. we are less.. takes form of addiction/conquest.. then we blame greed/addiction/hate for problems.. but those are symptoms
24 min – a: there is a feel that the orgy of hubris is at a (limit).. a step change moment.. ie: whatever we are doing is not working anymore..
29 min – c: everybody has something they’re wrong in.. what’s it going to take to let go of that.. and say.. oh.. i was wrong
32 min – a: moments when i realize my desire to know et al.. is the problem
33 min – c: what is damaging is to ascribe that wrongness to our soul.. ie: to blame bad things on bad people.. if problem of world were bad people.. we’d kill them.. et al.. if we understand .. i know you ness.. i’d probably do same thing.. we never look for real problem.. not about letting people off hook.. it’s that the conditions are what is necessary for us to change.. not changing/killing ‘bad’ people
i know you ness
39 min – c: when speak to that part of people (beauty).. something awakens .. that’s the kind of power we need to be able to access.. and doesn’t require power to overcome (things in power today).. we have to adopt a diff way than to become better than the oppressors and techs of oppression.. t
so.. let’s build infra around something that every soul already craves
49 min – c: people never stirred by being frightened
58 min – a: being born into a context in which you know this is not the way it’s supposed to be.. one archetypal grief.. born where you don’t belong.. that dis-id w the dominant system.. made me wonder.. where are the cultures where that is still intact.. where my primary id is the universal id.. when you’re in a space like that there is a redemption of the human project that exists.. t
1:00 – c: if it were making us happy.. maybe we could justify it.. but it’s not even making us happy
1:01 – a: i was other-ing.. and then interact.. and finding.. everyone thinking they’re doing a service to the world..
1:02 – a: the difficulty to keep this thing in place.. perpetual war/enslavement.. isn’t that more difficult.. on some level the higher self knows this is no use to us
1:03 – a: on ‘rather be ruined than change’.. i realized i don’t have to persuade them.. have to wait till their illusions die.. and covid is doing some of that
1:04 – c: if there were just evil people we could destroy.. so much easier.. but no..
1:06 – c: what gets us to point of facing (that we’ve been wrong).. what helps people.. gives them the context.. to do that.. on personal level.. we might have answers.. on level of organizations.. maybe not.. but an important question..t
1:08 – c: to say that they are benefitting is to adopt the metrics of the dominators.. t