m of care – mar 20 25
mirko’s continuation of 4th session [m of care – dec 5 24] of ultimate hidden truth talks [https://museum.care/events/democracy-in-ancient-greece-mirko-canevaro/]:
Democracy In Ancient Greece – Mirko Canevaro
We are holding a Zoom meeting to discuss David Graeber’s work with Mirko Canevaro who is the Professor of Greek History at the University of Edinburgh.
The meeting will be related to David Graeber’s work: There Never Was A West, with a focus on the myths surrounding Democracy in Ancient Greece.
We previously held in December with Mirko Canevaro a similar meeting and due to the large popularity of that one, as well as the enthusiasm that followed, we have decided to do a 2nd meeting on the topic.
You can read the full essay here which is available at this link.
The event takes place on March 20th.
notes/quotes from meeting:
nika: intro
mirko: reviews dec 5 session.. graeber – see democracy as form of govt or form of governance (way to make decisions together).. majority rule tied w state violence.. way we make decisions.. know those who don’t go along can be forced.. if we take away representation.. what happens.. can we look at other demo forms.. this was reflected in democracy project.. in doe trying to find alts.. so why was greek demo so central to it.. it was central to a resumption of demo.. a view connected w majority rule.. makes it easier for countries to deny wholesale democracy.. an excuse to indulge in authoritarian form..
mirko: my own contribution to that – we could try to displace narrative of it coming from greek demo.. or can try to decolonize demo in ancient greece too.. looking at demo as early form of state sponsered majoritarianism.. my answer.. if look hard enough.. greek demo does look like european demo.. as graeber describes.. did not make consensus decisions.. main criteria.. all should be voiced.. graeber describes consensus of desirable.. version of people questioning system or walking away.. so majority voting could not be reliable..
mirko: i think my concern is 1\ if we take greek demo away from narrative (which graeber didn’t like) and inserted demo forms of other governance.. it helps in terms of scale.. greek assemblies over 600 at a time.. how to create kind of training all across society..
nika: can you elab on diff assemblies (from last session)
mirko: best from 4th cent bc.. 1\ explosion of inscriptions detailing anal reports of decision making.. the great convergence.. oligarchy.. census based regimes.. all males could participate in decisions.. all had slaves.. there was a leisure class.. wealthy.. rich people tried to close down participation and reduce it only to those who didn’t have to work for a living.. aristotle, socrates, et al.. hated when everyone could talk.. incensed that shop owners would stand up to them..
mirko: by mid 4th cent this demo wins.. 2-3 cent all cities governed in same way.. no census.. open assemblies.. selection by lot.. local differences.. but model was standard for 200 yrs.. 1000s of ways run like that
mirko: the life of ancient villages – recent book –
chirs in chat: Phrygia: An Anarchist History, 950 BC-AD 100 – P. Thonemann – In: Roman Phrygia: Culture and Society, edited by P. Thonemann – Cambridge University Press 2013
mirko: all the cities had slaves.. but diff degrees/prices et al.. didn’t have to have slaves.. because got paid for participation..
mirko: – as to assemblies helping today stave off billionaire take over.. this worked because everybody was doing it.. they managed (lower class) by keeping to selves..
ulja: how did people decide what questions make it to assembly.. are there ie’s of occasions of dm in smaller assemblies.. that make decisions for smaller parts..
mirko: yes to 2nd question.. all over the place .. informal forms all over.. kinship, professional, et al.. always made decisions in same way no matter the size/topic.. to 1st question – basic rule – could only discuss in assembly on something council had put in agenda.. assembly could tell council what to represent.. and council members were random.. anybody could make a proposal.. did have facilitators.. that ran the debate.. selected by lot on morning of event and in charge for only one day.. no limit to number of speeches/proposals.. but couldn’t have divisive or repeat issues.. main way people were heard was thru shouting.. a very messy affair.. but so heavily socialized into it so it worked until it didn’t
nika: Michael Hudson believes that democratic governance doesn’t abolish debts, it doesn’t have mechanisms for abolishing debts,
mirko: reason much evidence of debt crisis.. had debts.. but little evidence they got to breaking points.. there is little evidence of complete debt cancelation.. but is evidence of reduction of debt
nika: Also interesting about the concept of time and property: it was linear time, unlike Babylon.
mirko: one reason hated democracy is that they would redistribute land and reduce debt.. only top 4% paid tax.. no direct extraction of any kind on agri progress for small holders..
leopoldo: they had option of just stepping out.. is there an option like that
mirko: there are spaces to go
stas: on making enslavement for debt illegal.. where do slaves come from then.. if cheap.. abundant supply.. where do they come from
mirko: from far away.. from friija, syria, thrase, some are greek but very few.. outside of what is considered greek.. so talking an enormous scale of slave trade
stas: were they going and capturing slaves
mirko: most from losing battle.. vast majority from internal raids that don’t involve greeks at all..
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be you. 