m of care – mar 2
debt (book) – david graeber – part 10 – ch 10-11
[https://museum.care/events/debt-the-first-5-000-years-by-david-graeber-reading-group-part-10/]
We’ll continue discussing Chapter 10 (as needed) and then Chapter 11.
11 min – shambhavi (after question of is original capitalism based on interest).. from personal interest in something to everything getting less personal so now financial interest to get best deal.. what i would imagine these changes would take the form as
of math and men.. any form of m\a\p as cancerous distraction
12 min – stas: i think david is making ref to ch 11.. personal credit have diff mechanics of transformation that impersonal credits.. in islam world it was handshake deals.. or it becomes weapon of mass destruction.. because could (?) the bunker and bunker would lose his credit.. and the credit is the source of money.. and your ability to enter the deal.. to enter into human relationship with others depends on your creed on your credo (?).. so this goes wider in all middle ages.. that everywhere religions were trying to suck coins from circulation and cast them into some kind of idols to force people to have personal debt relationships
14 min – christian: if you want to make money you have to take risks.. and if you take interest you’re not taking risks.. it’s a risk free gain.. therefore morally object.. also ties into.. violence goes down.. when have contracts have to have someone to enforce it.. system here in islam in middle ages is to think about who you do business with.. a shared culture of risk taking.. ship going down, robbed, starving.. et al.. this is the pay off.. violence goes down, interpersonal relationships go up.. and money more of an abstract concept.. and too.. who do you have a debt to? the universe.. ? and then money is what people want it to be.. once realize this enter into relationship w the big unknown.. because on one hand.. everything.. on other.. nothing..
17 min – steve greenspan: to have human econ need trust.. so what does that mean.. so criticism of interest.. it’s as if you’re trying to create for self a risk free universe.. and universe has risks.. so trusting that in some sense universe is ok.. there’s a god.. am wondering how that interplay exists.. between .. there is a god.. and ability to have a trust environ.. move into age of capitalism.. there’s a great distrust.. lots of violence.. so trying to figure out how trust works in this cycle.. what helps create an environ of trust in which a human econ can develop
if it’s sans any form of m\a\p
20 min – christian: have to get to know the person have to take the plunge
21 min – nika: on anti semitism and how christian environ created diff relationships between usury and war.. was an important concept to understand.. looks like islamic way of dealing w money and relationships looks like a blue print.. to get closer to this one
26 min – shambavi: wondering about prize for taking successful risks.. to me ‘risk’ evokes not most positive connotation..
32 min – michael: word risk merges from ancient sailors calculating how much they’d lose by losing a ship.. for captain.. losing money.. whereas sailor on ship.. was more about danger
42 min – christian: in some ways.. i was thinking in earlier ch’s .. when people went into debt and couldn’t see future for selves.. would leave city and come back as bandits and take over city and would start anew.. patriarchal rebellions that started on periphery.. don’t we see relations to that now
46 min – nika: yeah.. on merge of fin/military capital in cities..
steve greenspan: comes back to ch 12.. when he talks about today and re emergence of virtual currency and rise of evangelism in us.. and fundamentalism in other parts of the world.. so i think we’ll get there..
47 min – simona: fascinated by.. ideology of free markets is islamic born.. where state was regarded as something external to society.. allowed a networked of merchants based on trust.. fascinating this opposition between trust and the state.. david provides in this ch a historical background that shows diff between markets that claim to be separated from state.. but actually rely on violence and colonialism and power of state.. most interesting in this ch for me.. what you can build just on trust and moral grounds about markets.. a diff pov on markets
53 min – simona: on ideas of human nature.. a line of thought i find in many places in david’s work.. the idea of competition .. everybody against everybody.. david notes the idea of self governing markets of ancient islam is the same as in adam smith.. but diff.. myth thinks of truck and barter.. for islam it was an extension of mutual aid.. so diff is in an idea of human nature.. based on greed and consumption of everybody/thing and an idea of market as cooperation amongst people.. from european pov have master/servant.. in algasale (?) focus of markets is in cooperation and not war.. this is a very important point in my opinion
human nature ness
56 min – christian: other part in this ch i think is important.. they took competition seriously.. today.. want a monopoly.. don’t want risk.. this is highest ideal of capitalism today.. ie: fb, twitter, et al.. it’s a 180 degrees turn
57 min – steven greenspan: not competition per se but self interest .. point.. as adam smith says.. is to win to dominate and in islam it’s to sustain a community.. and diff is crucial
58 min – stas: on human nature.. anthropologists wouldn’t say war of all against all isn’t a war.. rather has to be war of us vs them
michael give ch 11 summary
67 min – nika: thank you.. michael did everything.. maybe you could write your proposal (of what to read next) .. i would just slow down..
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be you. 